What do you think of PSL?

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"Administering the economy in the interests of working and poor people" is what they have in, say, Sweden on Norway.

LOL NO. Really, no. The economies of Sweden and Norway run on capital, right? Their purpose is to produce money, right? This leads to a situation where a few people have a lot of money while the others don't, right? These others are the working and poor people. (If the Norwegian economy were administered in the interest of the poor people, they wouldn't have any poor people.) And the working and poor people are the proletariat.

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No, but it clearly shows that you're afraid of doing this.

Why should anyone do this? I wouldn't do this, if only for the reason that I don't want to be seen carrying a poster of anyone's face around.

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LOL NO. Really, no. The economies of Sweden and Norway run on capital, right? Their purpose is to produce money, right? This leads to a situation where a few people have a lot of money while the others don't, right?

You are right indeed. My comparison is wrong.
However i still find their "criteria for socialism" more than suspicious.

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And the working and poor people are the proletariat.

The proletariat does not necessarily include "poor people" (who might be the lumpenproletariat).

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Why should anyone do this? I wouldn't do this, if only for the reason that I don't want to be seen carrying a poster of anyone's face around.

Well it's still evident that they're ashamed and afraid of Marx and Lenin.

Loz wrote:

I am against imperialism in the case of Cuba, Iran, DPRK and Angola.
However Cuba is neither revolutionary nor socialist.

That is a nice short list of countries you support against imperialism. Might I inquire why/when Cuba is not revolutionary or socialist?

Loz wrote:

No, but it clearly shows that you're afraid of doing this.

Because carrying around pictures of dead white people doesn't amount to jack shit. That accomplishes nothing.

Loz wrote:

What does race have to do with anything?
And without revolutionary theory there is no revolutionary action.

The fact that dead white philosophers (sort of a saying I suppose) who have been dead for over a century don't resonate with the daily struggles poor and working people face.

Again, dogma much? You need to understand the difference between the party and the masses. It is important for cadres to be versed with revolutionary theory but going out to anti war rallies, union strikes, police brutality demos, ect. any preaching from the Communist Manifesto doesn't work. The masses aren't drawn to the Party because they read Marx & Company. They are drawn to the Party because it is at the forefront of the daily struggles that effect them.

Loz wrote:

What exactly are those "oppressed people"?

Blacks in the Civil Rights struggle, immigrants in immigration struggles, students during budget cuts, workers in labor struggle, oppressed countries during imperialist wars, ect.

Loz wrote:

Nonsense. Everyone or almost everyone here defends these nations against imperialist intervention.

Remember Libya?

Loz wrote:

Yes, it may have had something to do with the USSR being hungry for expensive sugar...

Again censoring the key role the PSP played in advancing the struggle during the revolutionary situation. The USSR provided development aid to many countries such as Egypt and India; however, no country because a dictatorship of the people because of a lucrative trade deal.

Loz wrote:

Again, without revolutionary theory...

Again being dogmatic. The purpose of Liberation is not to recite every Marxist work on MIA. It is meant for outreach to the masses. There are plenty of parties that recite every piece of work of people who have been dead for decades and that is a shitty job at outreaching to the masses.

Loz wrote:

A bourgeois state can (and there were plenty of them in history that did) fullfill all these criteria, even the first one.
All that is not socialism.

Explain.

Loz wrote:

What dogma?

PSL doesn't carry around enough pictures of dead Marxists are rallies. The PSL doesn't cite enough dead Marxist in their newspaper.

Loz wrote:

I'm certainly not doing that. China is, today, more significant than it had been 40 years ago.

...and ignoring the struggle that the Chinese people underwent to achieve where it is today..

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That is a nice short list of countries you support against imperialism.

You may have noticed that these countries barely have anything in common. Iran is a theocracy but we defend it against imperialist intervention.

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Might I inquire why/when Cuba is not revolutionary or socialist?

Because it's a capitalist country that's moving further towards liberalizations.

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Because carrying around pictures of dead white people doesn't amount to jack shit. That accomplishes nothing.

Yes, but it shows that you aren't afraid of Marxism.

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The fact that dead white philosophers (sort of a saying I suppose) who have been dead for over a century don't resonate with the daily struggles poor and working people face.

Oh but they do resonate. More precisely, their theories do.
And why do you keep mentioning their race?

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Again, dogma much? You need to understand the difference between the party and the masses. It is important for cadres to be versed with revolutionary theory but going out to anti war rallies, union strikes, police brutality demos, ect. any preaching from the Communist Manifesto doesn't work. The masses aren't drawn to the Party because they read Marx & Company. They are drawn to the Party because it is at the forefront of the daily struggles that effect them.

Is that your excuse for not working on the ideological upbringing of the masses? How many classics have you published? You don't even, from what i saw at least, have an online library of basic Marxist theory!
Do you need me to google pictures of Bolsheviks carrying Marx and Engels' portraits in the earliest revolutionary times?

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Blacks in the Civil Rights struggle, immigrants in immigration struggles, students during budget cuts, workers in labor struggle, oppressed countries during imperialist wars, ect.

Whatever. Everyone's oppressed, be they KKK rednecks in Texas or teenagers from "the Hood", "workers in labor struggle" and workers who are currently not in "labor struggles".

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Remember Libya?

Did i support the NATO intervention there?

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Again censoring the key role the PSP played in advancing the struggle during the revolutionary situation.

No, Castro and Co. saw that they could profit more from the USSR so they turned red.

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Again being dogmatic.

Har har har har.

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The purpose of Liberation is not to recite every Marxist work on MIA. It is meant for outreach to the masses. There are plenty of parties that recite every piece of work of people who have been dead for decades and that is a shitty job at outreaching to the masses.

Straw man. The workers need to be versed in Marxist theory. Reed writes how in Russia everybody was reading and debating everywhere.
What are you, Blanquists or something?

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Explain.

Singapore.
Or:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/connoll ... monsoc.htm

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The PSL doesn't cite enough dead Marxist in their newspaper.

Your newspaper doesn't cite any Marxist theory. A bourgeois liberal could have written half of the texts there.

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...and ignoring the struggle that the Chinese people underwent to achieve where it is today..

No.

Loz, just a quick question: Do you consider that Lenin and USSR abandoned socialism when the NEP was implemented?

No, it was a temporary step back.

You're seriously blaming the PSL for not walking around with pictures of foreigners on signs? Do you expect us all to be a parody of Marxism? The childishness of this line is astounding. You don't need to fear the past to know that using propaganda tactics from nearly a hundred years ago is fragging stupid. And if anything we should carry signs of Eugene Debs or Big Bill Haywood or Huey Newton if we were to pretend like it was 1917 again.

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You're seriously blaming the PSL for not walking around with pictures of foreigners on signs?

No, i'm blaming them for not educating the masses in revolutionary theory.

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The childishness of this line is astounding.

So Lenin was wrong then?

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You don't need to fear the past to know that using propaganda tactics from nearly a hundred years ago is fragging stupid.

Yes, if you can come up with better and more appropriate ones.

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And if anything we should carry signs of Eugene Debs or Big Bill Haywood or Huey Newton if we were to pretend like it was 1917 again.

Since when are they considered the classics of Marxism?

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Pictures of people =/= Marxism. Otherwise every schmoe with a Che T-shirt would be a revolutionary.

Quite correct, of course. But what message does this send? Why is there very few to none Marxist theory on their site? Why is Red Rebel saying ( from what i gathered) that the masses don't need to bother themselves with all these "dead white people" and "their theories"?

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How does that matter even remotely?

My point was that it's the duty of progressives everywhere to defend countries against imperialism. But that doesn't man that we have to "defend" Cuba as a "socialist country".

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You should probably pay more attention to US politics.

I don't understand. The American masses are of course largely ignorant of Theory, but that's why the communist parties should do their job and educate people. Educating people in Marxism is as important as holding marches.

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I really don't understand why you seem to be completely incapable from separating marxist theory from historical figures. What you're describing is petty idol worship, which even the most deluded fundamentalists can easily avoid.

I wouldn't be bitching here if there was much of Marxist theory on their "free-for-all" site in the first place. But maybe they have a special one for "upper-party" members who have to study it?

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You can't possibly believe that.

I certainly can. Happened in Yugoslavia and so on and dozens of various African countries.

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You've fit the straw man very well.

How?

Loz wrote:

No, i'm blaming them for not educating the masses in revolutionary theory.

Sounded like not carrying around portraits was a big part of your arguement. But yeah it's not like we have a revolution brewing so a revolutionary theory is secondary to our immediate concerns, ie making significant propaganda gains.

Loz wrote:

So Lenin was wrong then?

Lenin belittled his comrades for not carrying around Marx and Engels portraits?

Loz wrote:

Yes, if you can come up with better and more appropriate ones.

We already have. It's a full proletariat that is literate. The capitalists stopped using peasant propaganda like in the 70's.

Loz wrote:

Since when are they considered the classics of Marxism?

Since when did Lenin have positive cultural connotations in America? You're like the neo-Nazi who carries around a picture of Hitler in Israel. Debs, Haywood, and Newton are American Marxist Leaders. We don't need Russian ones to be honest. I think Stalin was a great leader but that doesn't mean I am aiding the Cause by shuffling around with a picture of someone that is nearly universally despised. It's not the way to rehabilitate him anyways.

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Sounded like not carrying around portraits was a big part of your arguement.

No, but the fact that they don't really discuss Leninism in practice. They are not bothering with dispelling the lies about the USSR from what i can see.

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But yeah it's not like we have a revolution brewing so a revolutionary theory is secondary to our immediate concerns, ie making significant propaganda gains.

Nonsense. Theory is always important and such categories as "primary and secondary" in this context are simply false and anti-Marxist.

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"Practice without theory is blind. Theory without practice is sterile. Theory becomes a material force as soon as it is absorbed by the masses."

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Lenin belittled his comrades for not carrying around Marx and Engels portraits?

Lenin always stressed out the need for the wide masses to immerse themselves in Marxism. PSL, it seems, has a different idea on this.

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We already have. It's a full proletariat that is literate. The capitalists stopped using peasant propaganda like in the 70's.

Actually, i read that in America there are a lot of "functionally illiterate" people.
Anyway post some examples of "new" propaganda that's better than the old one.

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Since when did Lenin have positive cultural connotations in America?

The PSL should at least try to work on changing this.

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They practice Leninism.

And how do you know? Who doesn't "practice Leninism" anyway? From Trots to Maoists, everyone's calling themselves the "true Leninists" and what not.

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That's a mark in their favor. They aren't occupied with historical squabbling, they're concerned with actual progress.

It's going to bite them in the ass sooner or later. Who doesn't know the history will have a hard time figuring out the present and the future.

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That's a pretty vulgar reading of Marxist theory.

I don't understand.

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Again, Marx and Engels =/= Marxism

Indeed. Now point out some of the amazing Marxist theory on their site. Even the CPUSA has a better "library"!

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For what purpose? Rehabilitating historical figures is far, far, far less important than the movement itself.

We're not rehabilitating figures but the historical experience of communism. Which is why dispelling the lies about the USSR matters more than, i don't know, the background behind Obama's change of views on gay marriage (PSL news).

Loz wrote:

No, but the fact that they don't really discuss Leninism in practice. They are not bothering with dispelling the lies about the USSR from what i can see.

Lies about the USSR? Like what? And PSL members have all kinds of meetings from what I understand. It's ridiculous to think that such a party doesn't discuss Marxism.

Loz wrote:

Nonsense. Theory is always important and such categories as "primary and secondary" in this context are simply false and anti-Marxist.

Yeah I said theory is unimportant didn't I. Oh and nevermind this crazy concept called "priorities".

Loz wrote:

Lenin always stressed out the need for the wide masses to immerse themselves in Marxism. PSL, it seems, has a different idea on this.

Seems? How about some evidence?

Loz wrote:

Actually, i read that in America there are a lot of "functionally illiterate" people.
Anyway post some examples of "new" propaganda that's better than the old one.

Watch any of the mainstream media. They're doing a way better job than us.

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Lies about the USSR? Like what? And PSL members have all kinds of meetings from what I understand. It's ridiculous to think that such a party doesn't discuss Marxism.

Lies such as, whatever, bread queues or the "repression".
And i'm not sying the PSL doesn't discuss Marxism. What i find suspicious is that there's not much "Marxism" on their site. Compare

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Yeah I said theory is unimportant didn't I. Oh and nevermind this crazy concept called "priorities".

What priorities? Lenin clearly says that without revolutionary theory you can't have revolutionary action.
You can have, to quote Red Rebel, anti war rallies, union strikes, police brutality demos though.

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Seems? How about some evidence?

For evidence see RR's "dead white people not being important" and their home-site.

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Watch any of the mainstream media. They're doing a way better job than us.

Correct. That's a problem.
However i'm also sure that bourgeois parties could deal with half of the issues on the PSL news-page just as well.

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Because I've seen them in action. You know, because they're a party that actually operates in my country. And my state and my city for that matter.

And how does that prove that they "practice Leninism"?

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Just take a look at their publications. And that should tell you right there how insignificant a library of "Marxist classics" are when you compare eurocommunists like the CPUSA

From what i see they have perhaps a dozen "publications". Not for free of course, that would be scandalous.

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Yes, reviving Cold War conflicts is more important than contemporary american politics.

No, but disproving myths and prejudice about Socialism is more important that wondering about Obama's views on gay marriage. Leave that to Liberals i say.

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Not for free of course, that would be scandalous.

Well they do have to get funding somehow....same with paying dues. The Bolsheviks robbed banks! I don't know if they charged for literature, however

If they walked around with Stalin signs that would just freak people out and alienate them, they wouldn't even be able to talk to that many people when they do public outreach...should we parade around and sing the Internationale while we're at it?

There's a time and place for that, and that's when they reach "Vanguard status" and actually gain support of the people..and still I don't think they'd have Stalin posters....however, the internationale would be heard by all.

Loz I'm afraid you have a very limited understand of how our Party functions.

Let me submit this question to you:

"Would you have a revolutionary movement in the US based on the ideals stated in our party program or would you rather have a small party which does absolutely nothing but discuss Marxism at forums organized in someone's house, and walk around with pictures of historical figures irrelevent to the working-class in the United States, maintaing an orthodox approach to what you understand as marxism, while having no chance at assembling mass support?"

Our party has made incredible gains in the past few years and has grown exponentially

We are a revolutionary party

We prove that communism isn't just a long dead "phenomenon" of the 20th century

Our Marxism and our Revolutionarism is not expressed in symbols or pictures, it is expressed in our actions.

I am a communist and you cannot tell me otherwise

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What i find suspicious is that there's not much "Marxism" on their site.

Marxism isn't a dogma, it's revolutionary mindset. Overthrowing the US government and establishing a dictatorship of the proletariat is as marxist as it gets.

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What priorities? Lenin clearly says that without revolutionary theory you can't have revolutionary action.
You can have, to quote Red Rebel, anti war rallies, union strikes, police brutality demos though.

Mass actions organized by the party is proof of the existence of the revolutionary theory; it is an expression of it.

Loz wrote:

You may have noticed that these countries barely have anything in common. Iran is a theocracy but we defend it against imperialist intervention.

You see plenty of leftist support the "Green movement" in Iran or state they are against imperialism, the Greens and the Iranian government and are for a non-existant mass workers movement.

Loz wrote:

Because it's a capitalist country that's moving further towards liberalizations.

Ironically you state that the NEP didn't make the USSR capitalist. As I mentioned with the four Pillars of Socialism (btw not a party line but a theme that I have personally noted) all still exist in Cuba. There are a variety of reasons Cuba implemented the reforms such as the decline in nickel prices, increased food prices, devestating hurricanes, renewed imperialist aggression from the US & EU, ect.

Loz wrote:

Yes, but it shows that you aren't afraid of Marxism.

More than likely it would provide ample ammo to the sterotype that Marxists support a cult of personality. Since you agreed that holding up dead people's faces at rallies doesn't amount to shit (other than were not afraid of Marxism), I don't see the point. If an individual ceases to become an individual and becomes a symbol of the struggle or movement than I don't see a problem of that. i.e. Che (anti-imperialism) or the recently murdered Trayvon Martin (police brutality). Holding up pictures of people like that is helpful because it isn't about that individual, it is about the symbol that they have come to represent. Dagoth Ur mentioned holding up pictures of historical American revolutionaries and I can't even imagine currently holding up a picture of someone like Sam Marcy (founded much of the theory the PSL is based on).

Loz wrote:

Oh but they do resonate. More precisely, their theories do.
And why do you keep mentioning their race?

Of course their theories are relevent, we are a M-L party. As stated the "dead white people/philosophers" is something of a saying.

Loz wrote:

Is that your excuse for not working on the ideological upbringing of the masses? How many classics have you published? You don't even, from what i saw at least, have an online library of basic Marxist theory!
Do you need me to google pictures of Bolsheviks carrying Marx and Engels' portraits in the earliest revolutionary times?

It is important to educate the masses; however, it would be absurd to show an interested person Das Kapital, Imperialism: the Highest Stage of Capitalism or even the Communist Manifesto. What the newspaper does is offer an easy way to get the masses enraged at the currently system, the fruitlessness of the Democratic Party, the need for systematic change, ect. For further education we have our own Party literature, educational forums and candidacy classes for our cadres. It is about using the right tools for the right job.

Furthermore I do not see the point in reinventing the wheel. Basic/classic Marxist literature is readily available at libraries or online. I will restate that the masses will not support socialism just from reading a book.

Loz wrote:

Whatever. Everyone's oppressed

In a capitalist society damn near everyone is oppressed; however, it is important to note that various peoples undergo more severe forms of exploitation other than the standard wage slavery. People of colour, LGBT, women, ect.

Loz wrote:

Did i support the NATO intervention there?

It was an example. Many leftist were not quick to answer when NATO attacked. The PSL was one of the first to respond. UFPJ, IAC did do actions after ANSWER.

Loz wrote:

No, Castro and Co. saw that they could profit more from the USSR so they turned red.

That is absurd and a compete lie. For all intents and purposes the Republic of Cuba was a colony of the USA. The M-26-7 was similar to the later Sandinistas in that it was a multi-tendency/class organization. The armed struggle was against Batista/Samoza (the individual not the system). Fidel could have easily support half assed vague reforms that he previously promised. He could have kept power and made himself wealthy. He chose not to and chose the path of extreme difficulty of pissing off the largest Empire on the plant that was 90 miles away. 600+ assassination attempts, the brink of nuclear war, and a 50+ year economic blocade? Loz, your previous statement is complete bullshit. There is no other way of stating it. And I haven't even mentioned the struggles of the various factions within the M-26-7 to fight for socialism and a better world.

Loz wrote:

Straw man. The workers need to be versed in Marxist theory. Reed writes how in Russia everybody was reading and debating everywhere.
What are you, Blanquists or something?

For two decades overwhelmingly there has not been a debate on American capitalism. There was no "other" system, there was no debate. The economic collaspe and OWS has done wonders brining that debate back to the USA. I believe I answered the educational purpose of the newspaper vs. other education means previously. Also first time I've been accused of being a Blanquist.

Loz wrote:

Singapore

There was more to the four pillars of socialism than simply state control. Try again.

Loz wrote:

Your newspaper doesn't cite any Marxist theory. A bourgeois liberal could have written half of the texts there.

As previously stated, I believe that I responded to the difference between our newspaper and other educational sources.