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Enver Hoxha

POST REPLY

Was Enver Hoxha positive or negative for Albania?

Very Positive
11
19%
Positive
13
23%
Neutral
6
11%
Negative
12
21%
Very Negative
12
21%
Other
3
5%
 
Total votes : 57
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Soviet cogitations: 1782
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2009, 20:08
Resident Artist
Post 31 Mar 2012, 15:31
What's your opinion of Hoxha? Was he good or bad for Albania?

He did some good things for Albania like electrifying the country and ending backwards feudal customs like blood feud, which returned after the fall of communism, but also he did some negative things like isolating his country, which failed to sufficiently raise living standards and alienating the country by pursuing aggressive state atheism. Perhaps, I should vote for neutral because although he was the best leader in Albanian history, he could've done a far better job.
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 31 Mar 2012, 18:35
Quote:
...which failed to sufficiently raise living standards and alienating the country by pursuing aggressive state atheism.

Standards of living rose significantly (Albania had a life expectancy higher than Yugoslavia's for example) as much as it was possible.
And adhering to Marxism-Leninism, not state atheism, was the reason why the country was "alienated".
Last edited by Loz on 01 Apr 2012, 03:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Soviet cogitations: 14444
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 31 Mar 2012, 20:08
No the country was alienated because Hoxha wanted to be a famous leader like Tito (who he jealously despised) or Mao. The achievements of Albania, which for a socialist country are only better than Romanian and Cambodian achievements, were built in spite of Hoxha's ever shifting alliances.

Voted negative because he still could have been worse.
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Loz
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Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 31 Mar 2012, 20:25
Quote:
No the country was alienated because Hoxha wanted to be a famous leader like Tito (who he jealously despised) or Mao.

Where are you getting this from? Substantiate.
Hoxha never claimed , unlike those two, that he was somehow more "original," independent-minded" etc... his whole life he stood for and defended Marxism-Leninism and not some Mao-Zedong thought or "Titoism".
Last edited by Loz on 01 Apr 2012, 03:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Soviet cogitations: 14444
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 31 Mar 2012, 20:38
Nvm
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 31 Mar 2012, 21:20
I voted neutral. I discussed with someone from Albania a few days ago, and he said that there was some good things.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Soviet cogitations: 113
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Jul 2009, 21:32
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Pioneer
Post 31 Mar 2012, 21:28
Voted positive. I don't know much about him, but I do like his state atheism.
Soviet cogitations: 124
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2012, 00:06
Unperson
Post 01 Apr 2012, 12:14
I read his biography in Wikipedia. Seems ok to me. No lurid details of bombings of public places to drive a wedge between political parties like our very own Josee Maria Sison..
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Soviet cogitations: 4381
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 01 Apr 2012, 18:51
I voted 'Very Negative'. Firstly, the extremely orthodox 'Marxism-Leninism' which he consistently talked about is something for political philosophers, not for leaders of countries whose people need to eat. The history of how this little country separated itself first from the Eastern Bloc, and then from China is almost mind-boggling in its irrationality. Secondly, as someone who does not accept the Maoist or orthodox Stalinist conception of the USSR post 1953 as 'revisionist', 'state-capitalist' or 'social imperialist', I critique Hoxha on that level, arguing that his ideological conceptions were based more in the need to preserve his power base (fighting against those elements that might seek to bring Albania closer to Yugoslavia or the USSR) than in real and justifiable ideological differences. Finally, out of his political/philosophical decisions and subsequent isolationism came the socioeconomic realities that affected the population in a negative way, which is why as a historical figure Hoxha is a tragic figure, rather than a comedic one.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 02 Apr 2012, 10:34
Quote:
Firstly, the extremely orthodox 'Marxism-Leninism' which he consistently talked about is something for political philosophers, not for leaders of countries whose people need to eat.

That "ML for political philosophers" saved Albania from becoming a puppet of the revisionist USSR and guided the whole nation towards communism while most other E.European countries saw their masses clearly become disillusioned with or at best not-interested (if not actively opposed to, as in Poland) in actually building socialism.

Quote:
The history of how this little country separated itself first from the Eastern Bloc, and then from China is almost mind-boggling in its irrationality.

Yes, Hoxha could have sold out and become another Todor Zhivkov or... Husak. Instead he fought for Marxism.
I don't see much irrationality in all this.

Quote:
Secondly, as someone who does not accept the Maoist or orthodox Stalinist conception of the USSR post 1953 as 'revisionist', 'state-capitalist' or 'social imperialist', I critique Hoxha on that level, arguing that his ideological conceptions were based more in the need to preserve his power base (fighting against those elements that might seek to bring Albania closer to Yugoslavia or the USSR) than in real and justifiable ideological differences.

There may be some truth to this, but Albania wasn't China trying to become the "boss" of world communism or whatever.
There were crucial and very real differences between Marxism-Leninism and Khruschovite/Brezhevite revisionism. The PL of Albania produced much material on all this.

Quote:
Finally, out of his political/philosophical decisions and subsequent isolationism came the socioeconomic realities that affected the population in a negative way, which is why as a historical figure Hoxha is a tragic figure, rather than a comedic one.

Albania could have abandoned Marxism for Soviet Zaporozhetses and GDR cameras, instead they didn't. And Bulgaria for example (not to mention Romania in the 80s) or ,especially, SFRY's Kosovo weren't that much ahead of Albania anyway.
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Soviet cogitations: 251
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Nov 2010, 13:37
Komsomol
Post 17 Apr 2012, 13:02
Positive. He could develop Albania, and also, I admire his consistency to defend "genuine Marxism-Leninism"
Inggris Kita Linggis, Amerika Kita Setrika ! -Sukarno-
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 08 Aug 2011, 22:59
Ideology: Other Leftist
Komsomol
Post 12 Feb 2014, 00:58
The only HOxha i have respect for is this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS9fYnjEccg
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 12 Feb 2014, 14:37
Voted very negative as he was an evil dictator that put back the cause of socialism.
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Soviet cogitations: 981
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 08 Aug 2011, 22:59
Ideology: Other Leftist
Komsomol
Post 14 Feb 2014, 01:53
Yami wrote:
Voted very negative as he was an evil dictator that put back the cause of socialism.

So, there are at least 5 other S-E forum members who agree with us.
Soviet cogitations: 10005
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 14 Feb 2014, 14:56
Voted positive because stalinism is better than feudalism.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
Soviet cogitations: 12389
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
Ideology: None
Philosophized
Post 14 Feb 2014, 18:23
After some thought, I had to go with "Other". Hoxha's bizarre sectarianism and isolationism didn't move the country out of the Seljuk darkness that has lain over this postage stamp principality since the fall of the Byzantines. On the other hand, he did manage to leave the place pretty much exactly as it was before he took control (plus the addition of a few million pill boxes). Considering that no progress was made in either direction, it's an eminent case of "Other".
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
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Soviet cogitations: 981
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 08 Aug 2011, 22:59
Ideology: Other Leftist
Komsomol
Post 14 Feb 2014, 22:01
Mabool wrote:
Voted positive because stalinism is better than feudalism.

Nazism is way better than prehistoric society, too. Would you choose nazism then, too?
Soviet cogitations: 673
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2011, 14:10
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 14 Feb 2014, 23:13
Comrade Gulper wrote:
After some thought, I had to go with "Other". Hoxha's bizarre sectarianism and isolationism didn't move the country out of the Seljuk darkness that has lain over this postage stamp principality since the fall of the Byzantines. On the other hand, he did manage to leave the place pretty much exactly as it was before he took control (plus the addition of a few million pill boxes). Considering that no progress was made in either direction, it's an eminent case of "Other".
This is an asinine and borderline racist post. "Postage stamp principality." "Seljuk." Literally every book which discusses in some detail the economy of the 1950s-80s will point out the gains the country made. According to a Yugoslav source, "impressive results have been achieved in industrial growth. By 1950, industrial output had already more than quadrupled compared with the pre-war level and continued to grow at a rate of 22.8 per cent between 1951 and 1955, at 17 per cent between 1955 and 1960, at 6.8 per cent between 1961 and 1965, and at 12.7 per cent between 1966 and 1970." (Marmullaku, Albania and the Albanians, 1974, p. 100.) And, as I've pointed out elsewhere, Albania got its first University in 1957. The country also went from having a negligible production of electricity to being able to export electricity to Yugoslavia.

EdvardK wrote:
Nazism is way better than prehistoric society, too. Would you choose nazism then, too?
You seem to have forgotten that the Nazis occupied Albania, and that their occupation had no problem bringing into the ranks of collaborators feudal elements and the clergy.
Soviet cogitations: 12389
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
Ideology: None
Philosophized
Post 15 Feb 2014, 01:16
I see Ismail got mad at me for making fun of Enver Hoxha and the glorious state of Albania. I don't harbor any racist attitudes toward Albanians (I think EdvardK is in charge of that department!). But I certainly don't take Albania very seriously. Honestly, with 3 million people to its name, it seems more like the sort of place that would function best as a backwater department of some larger state (which is exactly what it was under the Byzantines and the Seljuks).
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
Soviet cogitations: 673
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2011, 14:10
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 15 Feb 2014, 02:22
Comrade Gulper wrote:
I see Ismail got mad at me for making fun of Enver Hoxha and the glorious state of Albania.
Making patently false claims is not making fun of something.
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