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Tiananmen Square

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Who would you side with?

CCP
17
33%
Protestors
20
38%
Other (explain)
15
29%
 
Total votes : 52
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Soviet cogitations: 4779
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 May 2010, 07:43
Ideology: Other Leftist
Politburo
Post 15 Jun 2011, 03:27
Quote:
Actually is it true the average Chinese citizen has no idea such event occurred?

No, that's bullshit. Almost everyone knows that something happened that involves protests and the military and police, even people who weren't old enough to remember because they hear it from their families, but they just don't like to talk about it. The West mistakes the lack of talking and the lack of protests/memorials for "not knowing" (or the media spin it in such a way to outline the "totalitarianism" of the Chinese government) but that's actually not true. Many people who have the means to access this information (i.e., the internet) do know, and even those who don't remember from their family talking about it. This doesn't mean that there aren't people who don't know about what happened, but there are probably more Americans who aren't aware of Kent State and the brutal use of force by the police during the '60s than Chinese who don't know about Tiananmen.

proletarian wrote:
I should really stop putting other on the poll options. You guys use it way too much.

Ralph wrote:
Well, maybe the reason is that some topics are way too complicated to say just "Yes" or "No" ...^^

Pretty much what Ralph said. Also, I think you have to have "Other" or somebody will add it for you.
“Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals” - Mark Twain
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Soviet cogitations: 9816
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Apr 2008, 03:25
Embalmed
Post 15 Jun 2011, 03:47
Well there were some Chinese students who lived down the hall from me last year and my roommate asked them about Tienanmen and they didn't know about it at all. But maybe they didn't wanna talk about it.

Komissar_KW wrote:
there are probably more Americans who aren't aware of Kent State and the brutal use of force by the police during the '60s than Chinese who don't know about Tiananmen.

That's actually very possible.
Once capitalists know we can release the Kraken, they'll back down and obey our demands for sure.
_Comrade Gulper
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Soviet cogitations: 4779
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 May 2010, 07:43
Ideology: Other Leftist
Politburo
Post 15 Jun 2011, 04:15
I see maybe 3 possibilities:

1) They didn't want to talk about it.
2) Nobody in their family talked about it ever, and they never bothered wondering why internet access gets so weird on the 4th of June (like in the past, some sites would suddenly be inaccessible for a day).
3) They have family members in the Party who did a good job at making sure they didn't know. I mean, a lot of the youth today would probably react rather poorly, even to their parents, if they found that their parents were in a political party that sent in the army against people protesting against government policies.

I remember a friend of mine who's Chinese-American (maybe he was born in the PRC, but I'm not sure), and a Chinese exchange student lived with him. My friend pretty much believed the same thing that I had been taught about Tiananmen in the West, i.e., the government cracked down and opened fire on peaceful protesters with tanks and infantry. The exchange student living with him said that he had been told that it was an uprising of sorts and that the soldiers opened fire because the PRC would have been overthrown had the protesters gotten what they wanted.

btw, it should be noted that the CCP is now a lot "softer" about cracking down, and I doubt that they would repeat Tiananmen Square unless there were an armed insurrection against the government.

Also, it's not exactly good to take a few students from China as representative of the whole Chinese population. They might have reasons for not wanting to discuss the issue, or their parents would have reasons for not talking about it. Either the parents are in the Party, or they don't want to get their kids angry at the government if government policies helped them. Or maybe the kids just wanted to avoid controversial topics. Dunno.
“Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals” - Mark Twain
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Soviet cogitations: 4953
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Feb 2008, 15:25
Ideology: Other Leftist
Politburo
Post 15 Jun 2011, 04:56
Yes, there were some genuine Communists in the protests with genuine concerns, but they were hardly a majority. A lot of Chinese students who travel overseas get seduced by Western views and propaganda, and when they come home, they tell their friends all about the crap they've learned. I've seen it happen myself. It's a problem which concerns the CPC and has encouraged them to create more places for students in Universities in China as well as increasing the quality of education.

Yes, the CPC's reaction was way over the top, and they recognise this. Note that since the protests, numbers and training quality in the People's armed Police have been greatly boosted. When a large protest such as this occurs again, the PLP will be sent in instead of the army and will try to resolve the situation peacefully and without resorting to deadly force. Don't mistake unwillingness to talk about and admit a mistake publicly for unwillingness to discuss these things privately and take action to prevent similar occurrences from happening again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOGW0HC0v44
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DQ1_ldLBGk

This lecture given by an American analyst of the Chinese military discusses Tianamen and PLP briefly. I encourage everyone here to watch the whole thing. It's really interesting and well researched. Not the typical kind of crap you'll see from "analysts" on Fox news.
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Soviet cogitations: 1782
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2009, 20:08
Resident Artist
Post 15 Jun 2011, 18:23
Other - I'm not sure. Deng was far from ideal but the movement, which comprised many members with socialist leanings, could have been hijacked by Western-orientated organisations and the PRC could have ended up like the other socialist countries post-1989.

It would be interesting to see the outcome of China if the protests were successful but I have a feeling that it would make China more closely aligned with the USA, similar to the countries of the Eastern Bloc and it wouldn't have been as wealthy and powerful as it is now.
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Soviet cogitations: 10737
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 16 Jun 2011, 15:53
Support the CCP.

The following article is reprinted from the Winter 2008 edition of Socialism and Liberation: "China: Revolution and Couterrevolution"
Tiananmen Square and the threat of counterrevolution.

Other relevent article:
PSL response to ISO on China and Tiananmen
Image

"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 16 Jun 2011, 16:03
Whatever you want to say about the protestors, I don't think most people (myself included) would have the balls to stand in the way of a column that has orders to move in to disperse protestors with heavy armor like that one unknown rebel did.

Image
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Soviet cogitations: 14
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Jun 2011, 19:23
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 16 Jun 2011, 16:27
From the standpoint of the the interests of China, the CCP. As an American I obviously wish the protesters had succeeded and possibly gone on to ruin China.

The Tienanmen protesters were subversive of state authority, and on that basis alone needed to be crushed. One must also recall the political situation at the time in Eastern Europe, which I'm sure the CCP was very mindful of. As far as I know, they also had demands for more democratic government and some reversal of Deng's economic reforms. Democracy is an inferior form of government to what the CCP has developed and would weaken China, and reversing Deng's economic reforms would've slowed the PRC's rate of growth despite some social benefits.

Thus whatever the moral virtue of the Tienanmen protesters may have been, crushing them was good for China.
Dave from PoFo
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Soviet cogitations: 138
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 May 2006, 17:22
Pioneer
Post 16 Jun 2011, 19:19
Even if China wasn't a capitalist dictatorship, or even if it wasn't obvious the nature of her authority at that time, I'm still with the demonstators. Not because I agree with their opinions, but because I support their right to demonstrate. Whatever their demands were, DEATH is not a solutiion

Finally, I can say that even if these protests were pro-capitalist the kind of capitalism (democratic) they were supporting is better than the one that now have
"Either Socialism will be democratic or it won't be at all"
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Soviet cogitations: 4779
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 May 2010, 07:43
Ideology: Other Leftist
Politburo
Post 17 Jun 2011, 03:52
Try to keep the posts on-topic and the one-liners and attacks based on political positions to a minimum, thanks. - KW
“Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals” - Mark Twain
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Soviet cogitations: 3711
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Jul 2006, 04:49
Ideology: Juche
Old Bolshevik
Post 17 Jun 2011, 05:08
To be honest, I think both sides had their merits. On one hand, the CCP has modernised China into a world power and has done a lot of good things for the Chinese people; on the other hand, the protesters had just as valid reasons to protest, as China had abandoned socialism by that time, to the point to where they do not even have subsidised healthcare anymore. I know this will sound like a cop-out, but I just don't know who to support.
Soviet cogitations: 56
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 May 2013, 19:04
Ideology: Maoist
Pioneer
Post 17 May 2013, 17:00
Most of the protestors were hardline Maoists who opposed the free market reforms in China.
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Soviet cogitations: 10737
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 24 May 2013, 04:39
Image


Since when did the Statue of Liberty become a rallying symbol for "hardline Maoists?"
Image

"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
Soviet cogitations: 56
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 May 2013, 19:04
Ideology: Maoist
Pioneer
Post 24 May 2013, 19:04
The western media distorted the protests for their advantages.
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Soviet cogitations: 10737
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 25 May 2013, 02:13
Absolutely. That is why the protest was reactionary in nature. Despite real problems facing China, the form the protests took were against the Communist Party. Similar events have happened in Cuba with the Ladies in White or more recently in the "Arab Spring" in Libya. Despite the real problems the counties were/are facing the protests turned into tools of imperialism, which would/have lead to the overthrowing of an independent state.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
Loz
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Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 25 May 2013, 03:37
Quote:
Despite real problems facing China, the form the protests took were against the Communist Party.

So? That was a good thing. Not that there are any other parties in China.

Quote:
Despite the real problems the counties were/are facing the protests turned into tools of imperialism, which would/have lead to the overthrowing of an independent state.

China is not Cuba. How would democratization of PRC lead to the overthrowing of an independent state i really don't understand.
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Soviet cogitations: 716
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Aug 2007, 23:25
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 28 May 2013, 21:21
The protests took over a month, most of the time without any repression. Good luck trying to occupy the central square of the capital for a month with a protesting mob in the capitalist world... It was only after seven months that the crackdown began, and it is necessary to note that this was after the "protesters" had murdered and even immolated police agents that tried to get them to move away from the square.
Also, Wikileaks has confirmed through secret US files from the American embassy that no students were "massacred" on Tiananmen Square, and that about all of the casualties fell in the street fights between protesters and security forces outside of the Square itself. It was no massacre of innocent and unarmed protesters by bloodthirsty communists, as the West likes to portray it.

Also, I wonder how many millions would have died should the protesters have gotten their wish, and capitalism had been restored in China. We have but to watch the former USSR how well that went...
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"Communism is more about love for mankind than about politics."
Me
Loz
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Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 29 May 2013, 04:44
Quote:
Also, Wikileaks has confirmed through secret US files from the American embassy that no students were "massacred" on Tiananmen Square, and that about all of the casualties fell in the street fights between protesters and security forces outside of the Square itself. It was no massacre of innocent and unarmed protesters by bloodthirsty communists, as the West likes to portray it.

Bullshit conspiracy theories.
It was a massacre of innocent people, the protesters were unarmed while the government had armed soldiers and tanks.

Quote:
Also, I wonder how many millions would have died should the protesters have gotten their wish, and capitalism had been restored in China. We have but to watch the former USSR how well that went...

Capitalism had been restored in China years before Tiananmen happened. And thousands are dying in China anyway, due to pollution for example or suicides of super-exploited workers in factories.
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Soviet cogitations: 716
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Aug 2007, 23:25
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 29 May 2013, 22:40
Quote:
Bullshit conspiracy theories.
It was a massacre of innocent people, the protesters were unarmed while the government had armed soldiers and tanks.


So the pictures of half-cremated corpses of policemen and soldiers on the Square are photoshopped?

http://i0.wp.com/nsnbc.me/wp-content/up ... oters..jpg

Quote:
Capitalism had been restored in China years before Tiananmen happened. And thousands are dying in China anyway, due to pollution for example or suicides of super-exploited workers in factories.


I'm not talking about market socialism. I'm talking about actual capitalism. Think India, if you want an example. Repressing one counterrevolutionary riot is a small price to pay for avoiding such a mess.
Image

"Communism is more about love for mankind than about politics."
Me
Loz
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User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 30 May 2013, 01:23
Quote:
So the pictures of half-cremated corpses of policemen and soldiers on the Square are photoshopped?

No. But how do you know that this is a policeman or a soldier? Anyway you don't exactly have to be armed to kill someone and set his body on fire.

Quote:
I'm not talking about market socialism. I'm talking about actual capitalism

Same thing.

Quote:
Repressing one counterrevolutionary riot is a small price to pay for avoiding such a mess.

Except that nothing was avoided, the exploitation of the working class only worsened after Tiananmen ( though not necessarily just solely because of it of course ).
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