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Would you like to emmigrate to the DPRK?

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Would you like to emigrate to the DPRK?

Yes
13
16%
No
30
38%
Maybe
5
6%
I would prefer to emigrate to China, Cuba or another Socialist country
18
23%
No, I like it where I am.
13
16%
 
Total votes : 79
Soviet cogitations: 1128
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Aug 2008, 18:12
Party Member
Post 28 May 2013, 21:46
Quote:
Can you control the wheather?


All countries suffer weather abnormalities from time to time including the US. Therefore, you can't use it as an excuse as to why the USSR failed to eclipse the US economically. If the agriculture of the USSR was so susceptible to adverse weather, it can't have been in a very good state to begin with.

Quote:
That's called caesarism.


Pretty much but at least its more democratic than just being elected in by the Supreme People's Assembly (aka rubber stamp).

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As if there was only two mentions of Marxism-leninism in North Korea, one in the constitution and one in the capital city. This isn't a point but a joke.


Care to point out the other ones? I know citing evidence isn't your thing but...

Quote:
What colour was Henry IV white horse?


?

Quote:
Syria didn't opened entierly but it made concessions to radical islamists who were allowed to preach publicly. Syria also liberalized its economy at the beginning of the century.


In other words, no you can't provide any evidence of such correlation.

Quote:
You can't offer them something like that immediately. No revolution did that. The only thing you can offer is more power to the people, and this is enough.


I knew it, you support poverty. The trouble is, you think socialism is better than capitalism purely on moral grounds. In actual fact, it should be better on material grounds (i.e. provide a better standard of living than capitalism). This is why the USSR collapsed: you can't eat moral superiority.

Plus, when you say "power to the people", the North Korean people have no power. The government rules in their name but doesn't actually consult them.

Quote:
Most of the time your economy will know many difficulties and you will have to struggle against foreign forces. Many will die. You won't ask people if they want a revolution with all its consequences, revolution will become a necessity.


Yeah, if you're Pol Pot launching the Cambodian revolution, this description fits nicely. Not something we want to repeat though, is it.

Quote:
There was a revolution in Korea, they struggled, they failed, but they are still alive, and the only thing you propose is surrender. That's what traitors do.


There wasn't a revolution, the USSR installed the North Korean regime (check the Soviet archives again). And I never said they should surrender, I just said the North Korean leadership should be replaced and their policies altered.

Quote:
A military exercice is a preparation for war if its directed clearly against a country. Did the USA made military preparations against Canada? Did France made military preparations against Syria or Germany? Obviously not. A military exercice on a border is sufficient to trigger a war, especially a preemptive strike.


Then why aren't India and Pakistan at war right now?

Quote:
Good, we should start doing the same.


If you've resorted to this then it shows that I've won this argument hands down.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 24
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2013, 20:04
Pioneer
Post 29 May 2013, 00:02
I'd definitely emigrate to NK. Have you guys seen those uniformed ladies?




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Mmmmmm... I'd trade my tossed salad and scrambled eggs to meet one of those ladies. Ok, that was a lie, but I'd still move to NK given the opportunity.
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User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 2293
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 29 May 2013, 03:42
Quote:
Then why aren't India and Pakistan at war right now?

Why do you ask so many stupid questions? There has been 4 wars between Pakistan and India already.

Quote:
In other words, no you can't provide any evidence of such correlation.

You are a big boy, search on the internet, this discussion is about North Korea, not Syria.

Quote:
?

If you can't answer my question, how could I answer yours? Answer my question...

Quote:
Care to point out the other ones? I know citing evidence isn't your thing but...

I'm not supposed to cite obvious evidences. Your mind is blinded by your anti-Korean stance and misuse of Wikipedia. Every communist knows that North Korea still refers itself to socialism, the Korean constitution is a "socialist" constitution, and socialism is a transition between capitalism and communism. In a speech made in Juche 92 (2003), Kim Jong Il defined the Songun as a "revolutionary theory of Marxism" and a theory "based on the materialistic conception of history" but an "original theory of building socialism". This pamphlet was published in 2007, and I bought it in 2010.

Quote:
All countries suffer weather abnormalities from time to time including the US. Therefore, you can't use it as an excuse as to why the USSR failed to eclipse the US economically. If the agriculture of the USSR was so susceptible to adverse weather, it can't have been in a very good state to begin with.

Totally ridiculous.

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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Loz
[+-]
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 29 May 2013, 04:23
Quote:
Not by me. I can't call a military answer (the bombardment of Yeonpyeong) to a military provocation (military exercices) an "act of aggression".

Funny how you ignored the submarine infiltration or an attempt by the NK military to kill the ROK president.

Quote:
The North has no interest to make provocations of any kind,

Then why are they constantly staging provocations? Look at the list of border incidents and you'll see dozens of such "incidents" started by North Korea.

Quote:
For the society of other persons. I'm a Communist, thus poverty with Communism is fine.

Even Stalin said that you cannot have socialism without the constant and consistent rise of the living standards of the masses. The reality of course was different in the 30s, but the decline of North Korea is unprecedented in the modern history of post-socialist countries, even Tajikistan didn't see such famines and decay in the 90s.

Quote:
Totally ridiculous.

No it's not. Agriculture had for a long time been the Achilles heel of the Soviet economy, that's a well known fact, as is the fact that the USSR had to start importing grain in the 50s and 60s.
Crop yields in North Dakota don't mean much when it was precisely the Americans who exported massive amounts of grain to the USSR.





Quote:
I'd definitely emigrate to NK. Have you guys seen those uniformed ladies?

North Korea is a strongly xenophobic society, and there are very few mixed marriages there.
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Soviet cogitations: 24
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2013, 20:04
Pioneer
Post 29 May 2013, 06:48
Loz wrote:
North Korea is a strongly xenophobic society, and there are very few mixed marriages there.


They just need some lovin', that's all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKPoHgKcqag

That American defector is married to a North Korean lady so we all have hope...
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Soviet cogitations: 2293
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 29 May 2013, 14:11
Quote:
Funny how you ignored the submarine infiltration or an attempt by the NK military to kill the ROK president.

Park was a fascist, he deserved death. And a submarine infiltration is an act of espionage, like the Chinese computer attack, not provocation since it wasn't supposed to be discovered.

Quote:
Then why are they constantly staging provocations? Look at the list of border incidents and you'll see dozens of such "incidents" started by North Korea.

The aim of a provocation is to trigger a war. Saying that the North is trying to trigger a war is stupid. A border incident is like what Turkey did when sending a fighter over Syria or when the Syrian army shelled Turkish territory. Turkey's aim wasn't to trigger a war with Syria, but certainly to test Syria's military capabilities.

Quote:
North Korea is a strongly xenophobic society, and there are very few mixed marriages there.

No more than Japan. North Korea is a closed country but there is no reasons to believe that the country is xenophobic.

Quote:
No it's not. Agriculture had for a long time been the Achilles heel of the Soviet economy, that's a well known fact, as is the fact that the USSR had to start importing grain in the 50s and 60s.
Crop yields in North Dakota don't mean much when it was precisely the Americans who exported massive amounts of grain to the USSR.

That's ridiculous because my graph shows that agricultural capabilities improved as much in the USSR as in the USA. Agriculture was far from being the "Achilles' heel" of the USSR, since it was able to export grain during a great part of its existence. As the graph shows, a bad yield caused the USSR to import grain in 1972. Before that, the USSR exported more than it imported.
Image

"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Soviet cogitations: 1128
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Aug 2008, 18:12
Party Member
Post 29 May 2013, 18:55
Quote:
Why do you ask so many stupid questions? There has been 4 wars between Pakistan and India already.


I asked because you said a war exercise is justification for shelling civilians in retaliation (which North Korea did at Yeonpyeong Island). I replied that India tested a nuclear-capable missile in April of this year which was clearly aimed at regional rival Pakistan (and possibly China). But India and Pakistan are not currently at war and Pakistan didn't respond by shelling a village across the Indian border. I was pointing out how other countries don't resort to such horrific responses to foreign military exercises as North Korea did.

Quote:
You are a big boy, search on the internet, this discussion is about North Korea, not Syria.


Let me explain how this works. When you make a claim on these boards, you are supposed to back it up with evidence through a link to a source or at least a book citation. This evidence cannot be "go on the internet and look it up for yourself." If you can't back up your claim, it won't be taken seriously.

And you were the one who brought up Syria so don't complain when I mention it.

Quote:
If you can't answer my question, how could I answer yours? Answer my question...


Alright, Henry IV's white horse was white. Now how on earth is that relevant to what I said which was 'how do you explain that North Korea's ally China gave aid as well?' This, of course was, a response to you saying that aid given to North Korea by the US and China in the 1990s was part of a "peace negotiation".

Quote:
I'm not supposed to cite obvious evidences.


You are if you want people to take your rantings seriously.

Quote:
Your mind is blinded by your anti-Korean stance and misuse of Wikipedia.


Your mind is blinded by insane dogmatism because you don't actually understand anything you're talking about. And at least I use sources. You just seem to type whatever randome crap comes into your head and expect us all to accept it at face value.

Quote:
Every communist knows that North Korea still refers itself to socialism, the Korean constitution is a "socialist" constitution, and socialism is a transition between capitalism and communism.


Clause IV of the British Labour Party (introduced by Tony Blair) claims 1. The Labour Party is a democratic socialist party. Does that mean that The Labour Party and Tony Blair are communists? Was Britain under Tony Blair in a transition between capitalism and communism?

Quote:
Kim Jong Il defined the Songun as a "revolutionary theory of Marxism" and a theory "based on the materialistic conception of history" but an "original theory of building socialism". This pamphlet was published in 2007, and I bought it in 2010.


The constitution was amended in 2009, the portraits were taken down in 2012, and Kim Jong-Il is dead.

Quote:
Totally ridiculous.


Wow. I can see why you don't like posting sources when this is the sort of crap you come up with. This graph shows that, in terms of kg per hectare, the USSR was almost always outperformed by ONE STATE in the USA. So no, it is not a very good indicator of the state of Soviet agriculture. Just because agriculture improved in the USSR doesn't mean it was a strong sector of its economy. While this graph shows yields rose over the years, you are forgetting that the population grew as well so it's nothing special.


By the way, have you started washing your clothes in a river yet?
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Soviet cogitations: 2293
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 29 May 2013, 19:22
Quote:
I asked because you said a war exercise is justification for shelling civilians in retaliation (which North Korea did at Yeonpyeong Island).

Propaganda. They shelled militaries.

Quote:
Alright, Henry IV's white horse was white. Now how on earth is that relevant to what I said which was 'how do you explain that North Korea's ally China gave aid as well?'

Yes, Henry IV's white horse was white, and North Korea's ally gave aid to North Korea because they are allied. In both questions, the answer is in the question.

Quote:
Clause IV of the British Labour Party (introduced by Tony Blair) claims 1. The Labour Party is a democratic socialist party. Does that mean that The Labour Party and Tony Blair are communists? Was Britain under Tony Blair in a transition between capitalism and communism?

If you can't understand the difference between social democracy and communism, that's a problem. Social democrats don't intend to introduce socialism, i.e. a stage of transition between capitalism and communism.

Quote:
The constitution was amended in 2009, the portraits were taken down in 2012, and Kim Jong-Il is dead.

And then what do you want to prove? I bought my book to an official Korean delegation in 2010. Kim Jong Il (no dash) was elected eternal Chairman in 2012. There is portraits of Kim Jong Il everywhere, alongside Kim Il Sung's portraits.

Quote:
This graph shows that, in terms of kg per hectare, the USSR was almost always outperformed by ONE STATE in the USA.

Once again, you prove that you have a problem with logic or are unable to understand a graph. The comparison is indeed between North Dakota and the whole Soviet production, thus the amount produced isn't interesting unless we believe that North Dakota can represent the whole US production. But the interest of the graph is that it showh the evolution in terms of production capabilities, and proves that Soviet agriculture kept pace with US agriculture in terms of productivity, thus that the decrease in agricultural production is the result not of a decrease in productivity, but of natural factors.

Moreover, as I showed there with more graphs, the Soviet production was better than the US production until 1972 and exported much more than it imported.
viewtopic.php?f=110&t=53190
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Soviet cogitations: 1128
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Aug 2008, 18:12
Party Member
Post 29 May 2013, 20:33
Quote:
Propaganda. They shelled militaries.


Once again, prove it. Yeonpyeongdo has plenty of civilians living on it. Look at it on Google maps, it's mostly civilian areas.

Quote:
Yes, Henry IV's white horse was white, and North Korea's ally gave aid to North Korea because they are allied. In both questions, the answer is in the question.


So why would China, an ally, give aid as part of a peace negotiation? Who makes peace with their ally? Of course, this whole point is largely redundant because anyone with any knowledge of North Korean history will know that the US wasn't "negotiating peace" with North Korea in the 1990s and thus compelled to give aid (nor is it now, but it still provides aid). Therefore North Korea has to survive on handouts from the US. So much for its "communist honour."

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If you can't understand the difference between social democracy and communism, that's a problem. Social democrats don't intend to introduce socialism, i.e. a stage of transition between capitalism and communism.


I was pointing out that just because North Korea says it is socialist, doesn't mean it actually is.

Quote:
And then what do you want to prove? I bought my book to an official Korean delegation in 2010. Kim Jong Il (no dash) was elected eternal Chairman in 2012. There is portraits of Kim Jong Il everywhere, alongside Kim Il Sung's portraits.


That just because Kim Jong-Il (you can have a dash - although if you really want to be proper about it we could go with 김정일 and 연평도 or 대연평도 to be exact) wrote something a few years ago saying "Songun is Marxist" doesn't mean the current policy of the regime (which he no-longer leads) is Marxist.

Quote:
But the interest of the graph is that it showh the evolution in terms of production capabilities, and proves that Soviet agriculture kept pace with US agriculture in terms of productivity, thus that the decrease in agricultural production is the result not of a decrease in productivity, but of natural factors.


No, the graph shows that Soviet agriculture kept pace approximately with agriculture in North Dakota. You haven't provided any data for any other US states or an overall graph for US agriculture during that period. Therefore your analysis is flawed because you have failed to analyse a sufficient amount of data. Also, you have not taken into account population growth during that period. Soviet agricultural yields may have risen over that period, but if the population growth was higher than this amount of cereals could sustain, then there would have been a relative decline in Soviet cereal agriculture.

Quote:
Moreover, as I showed there with more graphs, the Soviet production was better than the US production until 1972 and exported much more than it imported.


Fig. II-1 is incredible vague. Care to elaborate on what it is trying to show?

And just because a country is exporting more grain than it is importing doesn't mean its agriculture is fine. China continued to export grain during the Great Leap Forward.

http://chineseculture.about.com/od/hist ... 8-1962.htm
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Soviet cogitations: 2293
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 29 May 2013, 22:54
Quote:
Once again, prove it. Yeonpyeongdo has plenty of civilians living on it. Look at it on Google maps, it's mostly civilian areas.

I don't need to prove it. Facts are clear: 2 militaries died, thus if there was only civilians, and if they had fired randomly, the probability that militaries would have killed would have been 0.

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I was pointing out that just because North Korea says it is socialist, doesn't mean it actually is.

That's true for everyone there.

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That just because Kim Jong-Il (you can have a dash - although if you really want to be proper about it we could go with 김정일 and 연평도 or 대연평도 to be exact) wrote something a few years ago

Actually they only use the dash in the South, so you can write Park Chung-hee but not Kim Il-Sung.

Quote:
saying "Songun is Marxist" doesn't mean the current policy of the regime (which he no-longer leads) is Marxist.

Indeed, but your point was that they abandoned Marxism, not that they are fake marxists, which is a totally different problem.

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No, the graph shows that Soviet agriculture kept pace approximately with agriculture in North Dakota.

That's not "approximately".


Quote:
You haven't provided any data for any other US states or an overall graph for US agriculture during that period.

Why would I need one? Why do you think this graph compares North Dakota and the USSR if it isn't because North Dakota represents well the evolution of production in the US? I have provided this graph and this is sufficient. If you have a problem with my graph, find another one, because I'm not a data center. You are the one criticizing my graph, so prove that my conclusion is wrong.

Quote:
Fig. II-1 is incredible vague. Care to elaborate on what it is trying to show?

That's the evolution of food production per capita, the index used is the average for each country between 1952-1953/1956-1957. The curve starts with pre-war figures on the left. Thus we can say that Soviet production per capita increased of almost 45 points, while the US production increased of 25 points.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Soviet cogitations: 1128
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Aug 2008, 18:12
Party Member
Post 29 May 2013, 23:35
Quote:
I don't need to prove it. Facts are clear: 2 militaries died, thus if there was only civilians, and if they had fired randomly, the probability that militaries would have killed would have been 0.


You claim it was propaganda so prove it was propaganda.

And yes, 2 soldiers died, but so did 2 civilians and many houses and civilian buildings were destroyed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardmen ... and_damage

Quote:
Actually they only use the dash in the South, so you can write Park Chung-hee but not Kim Il-Sung.


Neither of us are in the South nor the North.

Quote:
Indeed, but your point was that they abandoned Marxism, not that they are fake marxists, which is a totally different problem.


They have abandoned Marxism, In fact, one could say they were never truly Marxist in the first place.

Quote:
That's not "approximately".


Okay, they didn't keep pace with North Dakota.

Quote:
Why would I need one? Why do you think this graph compares North Dakota and the USSR if it isn't because North Dakota represents well the evolution of production in the US?


Why do you think North Dakota represents the entire US? What are you basing that on?

Quote:
If you have a problem with my graph, find another one, because I'm not a data center. You are the one criticizing my graph, so prove that my conclusion is wrong.


I have a problem with your graph because it is not sufficient evidence to back up your point. Your graph should display the cereal kg per hectare of the US vs the USSR (actually it should be food in general, not just cereals) in order to provide more accurate evidence.

Quote:
That's the evolution of food production per capita, the index used is the average for each country between 1952-1953/1956-1957. The curve starts with pre-war figures on the left. Thus we can say that Soviet production per capita increased of almost 45 points, while the US production increased of 25 points.


But US food production would have started at a much higher level and therefore had less incentive to increase if the market was satisfied with its supply. Cambodia is currently growing at a faster rate than the US, but this doesn't mean the Cambodian economy is stronger than the US's.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 30 May 2013, 00:28
Quote:
Neither of us are in the South nor the North.

I'm French. Should I speak French instead?

Quote:
They have abandoned Marxism, In fact, one could say they were never truly Marxist in the first place.

Maybe they are not, maybe they are. But they are obviously more Marxist than you are, for they don't support imperialism, while you do.

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Okay, they didn't keep pace with North Dakota.

The figure proves that they kept pace with North Dakota, this is clear.

Quote:
Why do you think North Dakota represents the entire US? What are you basing that on?

North Dakota does represent "the evolution of production of the US" because they share the same economic system and North Dakota is one of the leading regions in food production, thus a global increase in agricultural productivity in the US would have the same result in North Dakota. That's why the author of the study compared North Dakota and the USSR.

Quote:
But US food production would have started at a much higher level and therefore had less incentive to increase if the market was satisfied with its supply. Cambodia is currently growing at a faster rate than the US, but this doesn't mean the Cambodian economy is stronger than the US's.

The graph shows that the Soviet production increased more than the USA, except in 1962/1963 because of bad weather conditions. Thus it proves that if there was problems in the agriculture, they were not due to a problem in productivity since it was clearly increasing, and increasing faster than in the USA. They were due to bad weather conditions, the worst in 75 years. That's what the discussion was about, I don't understand why you are obsessed with defending the USA.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Loz
[+-]
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 30 May 2013, 01:38
Quote:
Park was a fascist, he deserved death. And a submarine infiltration is an act of espionage, like the Chinese computer attack, not provocation since it wasn't supposed to be discovered.

Even if he was, it was still without doubt a provocation and an act of war.

Quote:
And a submarine infiltration is an act of espionage, like the Chinese computer attack, not provocation since it wasn't supposed to be discovered.

No it isn't. Disembarking 20 heavily armed soldiers is not exactly just an act of espionage.

Quote:
The aim of a provocation is to trigger a war.

Not. Yugoslavia had hundreds of provocations on its borders with the Block countries in the 40s and 50s, and no side wanted war. DPRK and ROK know that they can't afford to go to war with each other, and both regimes have their uses for such incidents.

Quote:
No more than Japan. North Korea is a closed country but there is no reasons to believe that the country is xenophobic.

And Japan is infamous for being an extremely racist and xenophobic society. And yes there are all reasons to believe that, the people aren't even allowed to speak to foreigners FFS.

Quote:
That's ridiculous because my graph shows that agricultural capabilities improved as much in the USSR as in the USA. Agriculture was far from being the "Achilles' heel" of the USSR, since it was able to export grain during a great part of its existence. As the graph shows, a bad yield caused the USSR to import grain in 1972. Before that, the USSR exported more than it imported.

Well i've heard and read otherwise, on this forum among other sources. I'll wait for someone with more knowledge on this to reply.
But you should compare the agr. production in the USSR and the US, not the USSR and N. Dakota. That's something like comparing crop yields in Ukraine with those in Rhône-Alpes.
Last edited by Loz on 30 May 2013, 02:24, edited 2 times in total.
Soviet cogitations: 12389
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
Ideology: None
Philosophized
Post 30 May 2013, 02:00
For those of you who aren't aware, North Dakota isn't exactly the most famous or noteworthy state in the U.S. In fact, it's generally regarded as "America's Siberia". Population is less than 650,000 for a state the size of some medium sized European countries. Agriculture is a huge part of the economy in N.D., but only on the Eastern side of the Red River. On the western side, the land becomes extremely arid, and is mostly used for cattle ranching. The extreme southwestern portion is known as the "Bad Lands" - harsh, rocky terrain resembling the surface of the moon. I've been to North Dakota several times, and always found the nature fascinating - and the people there dull as ditch water. It's one of the most Republican states in the U.S.A.

OP-B, your graphic showing that the USSR (the world's largest country at the time) increased its agricultural capacity on a par slightly above North Dakota (a single state of one country) is... not the sort of evidence I'd be citing to make any arguments with.

OP-B wrote:
North Korea is a closed country but there is no reasons to believe that the country is xenophobic.

I'm just going to quote this, without comment.
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
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Soviet cogitations: 2293
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 30 May 2013, 23:04
Quote:
But you should compare the agr. production in the USSR and the US, not the USSR and N. Dakota.

I didn't made the comparison, I found it, and no North Dakota isn't Rhônes-Alpes, which is mostly specialized in animal husbandry. A comparison could be made between Ukraine and the regions around Paris. Rhônes-Alpes is in the south-east.

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And Japan is infamous for being an extremely racist and xenophobic society


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Japan is a homogeneous country, thus the integration of foreign workers can be difficult, but that's not racism. Japan is quite tolerant regarding "races".

If North Korea was racist or xenophobic there wouldn't be that:

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Quote:
Yugoslavia had hundreds of provocations on its borders with the Block countries in the 40s and 50s, and no side wanted war.

A provocation is supposed to provoke. If you don't intend to provoke anything, then you are not making a provocation but something else, for example a warning. If you approach a vicious dog, the dog will bark, but that's not a provocation. Imperialist propaganda says that, because the North is barking, this is a provocation, but that's a lie. The only country making provocations is the South, because there is a strong far right in the South and people willing to go at war.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Soviet cogitations: 1128
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Aug 2008, 18:12
Party Member
Post 31 May 2013, 18:38
Quote:
Maybe they are not, maybe they are. But they are obviously more Marxist than you are, for they don't support imperialism, while you do.


I don't "support" it, I recognise the ultimately temporary benefits it can provide. Case in point: North and South Korea.

Quote:
The figure proves that they kept pace with North Dakota, this is clear.


Until you provide a full correlation analysis we are just comparing our own visual interpretations of the line.

Quote:
North Dakota does represent "the evolution of production of the US" because they share the same economic system and North Dakota is one of the leading regions in food production, thus a global increase in agricultural productivity in the US would have the same result in North Dakota. That's why the author of the study compared North Dakota and the USSR.


First of all, that graph only shows kg per hectare - i.e. crops. You have completely neglected to analyse meat and dairy production. Secondly, if North Dakota is a leading region food production, surely any interference by the US government to increase agricultural yields would be focused on other states which weren't so productive?

Quote:
The graph shows that the Soviet production increased more than the USA, except in 1962/1963 because of bad weather conditions. Thus it proves that if there was problems in the agriculture, they were not due to a problem in productivity since it was clearly increasing, and increasing faster than in the USA. They were due to bad weather conditions, the worst in 75 years. That's what the discussion was about, I don't understand why you are obsessed with defending the USA.


So the whole reason why Soviet agriculture was inefficient was because of a spate of bad weather in '62/63?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 31 May 2013, 22:18
Quote:
Until you provide a full correlation analysis we are just comparing our own visual interpretations of the line.

Then you might consider buying glasses.

Quote:
I don't "support" it, I recognise the ultimately temporary benefits it can provide. Case in point: North and South Korea.

So you support it "temporary". Yet you never opposed it on this board, never. Afghanistan, Libya, Syria? That's more that "temporary", or maybe by "temporary" you mean something like 100 years?

Quote:
First of all, that graph only shows kg per hectare - i.e. crops. You have completely neglected to analyse meat and dairy production.

And why should I do so? Let's be serious, I'm speaking about agriculture, cows are not plants. An no the yield isn't the crop. Once again you prove that your understanding of dialectics is quite limited: crop also depends on the exloited surface. You can have a lower yield but a bigger surface.

Moreover your cows eat plants. The worst is the crop, the lower is your production of milk or meat (on the short range of course, the production of meat will increase because you will have to kill your beasts). And meat cost much cereals.

Quote:
So the whole reason why Soviet agriculture was inefficient was because of a spate of bad weather in '62/63?

The only conclusion is that there was a bad weather in 62/63, then a worst one in 1972, not that the Soviet agriculture was inefficient.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
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Soviet cogitations: 221
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Feb 2013, 06:55
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Pioneer
Post 01 Jun 2013, 05:32
I bullet to the brain would be more appealing then even taking a trip to the DPRK.
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Soviet cogitations: 982
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 08 Aug 2011, 22:59
Ideology: Other Leftist
Komsomol
Post 01 Jun 2013, 09:12
I'd rather give several thousand EUR (that the trip to there would cost) to some charity organisation or some other organisation that actually provides beneficial services to the poor and depriviledged of the society.
Soviet cogitations: 1128
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Aug 2008, 18:12
Party Member
Post 01 Jun 2013, 12:17
Quote:
Then you might consider buying glasses.


Or you could learn what correlation means.

Quote:
So you support it "temporary". Yet you never opposed it on this board, never. Afghanistan, Libya, Syria? That's more that "temporary", or maybe by "temporary" you mean something like 100 years?


You know full well that saying "I oppose it" on this board would achieve absolutely nothing in overthrowing global imperialism.

Quote:
And why should I do so? Let's be serious, I'm speaking about agriculture, cows are not plants. An no the yield isn't the crop. Once again you prove that your understanding of dialectics is quite limited: crop also depends on the exloited surface. You can have a lower yield but a bigger surface.


Lol, the dialectics of a crop yield now?

The whole reason we are arguing about Soviet agriculture (which included animals and dairy products - lok it up) is because you said the USSR would have eclipsed the US economically if its agriculture sector hadn't suffered from weather abnormalities. You have deliberately neglected to post any data on Soviet husbandry or dairy having only focused on cereal crops (along with the fact you still think North Dakota is representative of the entire US). Therefore your conclusions are unreliable as you have not utilised the full data available.

Quote:
Moreover your cows eat plants. The worst is the crop, the lower is your production of milk or meat (on the short range of course, the production of meat will increase because you will have to kill your beasts). And meat cost much cereals.


Cows eat grass, which is not a cereal crop.

Quote:
The only conclusion is that there was a bad weather in 62/63, then a worst one in 1972, not that the Soviet agriculture was inefficient.


And you neglect to mention here that the US, like any other country, also would have suffered from bad weather (e.g. the Dust Bowl in the 1930s). Therefore, according to your logic, their economic output should have been even higher than the Soviet Union's. You have also failed to compare the increase in Soviet agriculture yields with increases in the Soviet population.
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