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Are cops proletarians?

POST REPLY

Are cops proletarians?

Yes
20
32%
Other/Not sure
17
27%
No
25
40%
 
Total votes : 62
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 14448
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 30 May 2011, 00:04
Mabool wrote:
But this doesn't apply to cops, there are no exploiters they could free themselves of. The state doesn't even profit from their labor.


While I have changed my tune on some of this namely this statement:
Dagoth Ur wrote:
Your class is not decided based on your ideological/class loyalty. We're not sides of a battle we're economically derived classes. You're assigning too much value to the terms proletarian and bourgeoisie. They are simple labels.


Which was inaccurate as hell. However cops are still exploited proletarians. The value of their labor isn't so easy to pin down as in a product but they still produce something very real for the class they serve, ie the stability of common society. That said the trade-off in power over their own class-members so firmly places them into the labor aristocracy. It's a lesser form of exploitation but it's still exploitation. I guess the best comparison would be to the house slave, he's exploited far less than his brothers in the fields, but his existence is dependent on continuing to be exploited.

So while the state does not directly profit off of a cops product the flow of capital is maximized by his 'product' of stabilizing society.
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Soviet cogitations: 3765
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Nov 2009, 07:13
Ideology: Other Leftist
Politburo
Post 01 Jun 2011, 23:11
I voted that cops are proletarians for
Dagoth Ur wrote:
Which was inaccurate as hell. However cops are still exploited proletarians. The value of their labor isn't so easy to pin down as in a product but they still produce something very real for the class they serve, ie the stability of common society. That said the trade-off in power over their own class-members so firmly places them into the labor aristocracy. It's a lesser form of exploitation but it's still exploitation. I guess the best comparison would be to the house slave, he's exploited far less than his brothers in the fields, but his existence is dependent on continuing to be exploited.

This.

But cops are still enforcers of the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, therefore they are more similar in class consciousness to petty-bourgeoisie.
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Soviet cogitations: 56
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 May 2013, 19:04
Ideology: Maoist
Pioneer
Post 17 May 2013, 17:01
The answer is no, they are lumpen.
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Soviet cogitations: 14448
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 18 May 2013, 06:27
How are they lumpen? Lumpen are criminal, cops are enforcers of the will of the ruling class.

That said I wouldn't call them proletarian either. They're soldiers deployed at home.
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Soviet cogitations: 56
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 May 2013, 19:04
Ideology: Maoist
Pioneer
Post 18 May 2013, 18:36
They are working class but are reactionaries therefore they are lumpen.
Soviet cogitations: 112
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Apr 2013, 20:13
Pioneer
Post 18 May 2013, 18:42
Cops aren't proletarians but they do contribute a lot to society.
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Soviet cogitations: 14448
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 18 May 2013, 20:07
@cop: being a reactionary doesn't make one lumpen. Being lumpen means you are part of the criminal underclass.
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Soviet cogitations: 12389
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
Ideology: None
Philosophized
Post 20 May 2013, 00:58
Criminals are definitely a huge component of the lumpen underclass. The weird dynamic that exists between cops and criminals is one that popular media got a hold of years ago, and will still be milking for many years to come. The whole thing about successful detectives "needing to think like criminals" in order to catch criminals is something that always creeps me out. It's especially noteworthy when a cop ends up going "dirty" (as in, directly profiting from criminal activity; bureaucratic corruption is a whole separate issue).
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
Soviet cogitations: 10005
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 21 May 2013, 00:30
Newsflash: Most cops are criminals. But no they're not lumpen because lumpen don't really do wage labor.

Quote:
That said I wouldn't call them proletarian either. They're soldiers deployed at home.


This is the nicest answer I've heard to this question in a long time. Props.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
Soviet cogitations: 56
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 May 2013, 19:04
Ideology: Maoist
Pioneer
Post 21 May 2013, 16:36
I disagree with the belief that criminals can't be inspired and used during the revolution.
Soviet cogitations: 10005
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 21 May 2013, 17:10
"Criminals" is too wide a category to make such claims. I mean seriously most people I know are "criminals" in one way or another, but there's a difference between people who download music, people who smoke weed, and people who commit armed robberies.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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Soviet cogitations: 14448
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 21 May 2013, 22:06
The only violent lumpen we have to worry about are those who have built up individual power networks. Most of the others we could either to get to fight with us directly or cow them into submission via brutality.
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Soviet cogitations: 56
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 May 2013, 19:04
Ideology: Maoist
Pioneer
Post 21 May 2013, 22:17
By calling criminals "lumpen", your calling George Jackson lumpen.
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Soviet cogitations: 14448
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 21 May 2013, 22:23
Criminals are lumpen but not all lumpen are criminals.
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Soviet cogitations: 2408
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Nov 2003, 13:17
Ideology: Other
Forum Commissar
Post 22 May 2013, 02:18
Police, it depends. Some are good men, others are corrupt and will do anything that the government tells them. Some will abuse their powers and commit crimes themselves.
Soviet cogitations: 71
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Feb 2013, 07:11
Pioneer
Post 23 May 2013, 05:52
cops proletarians? no way, jose.
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Soviet cogitations: 100
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 24 May 2012, 00:32
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 23 May 2013, 10:57
This of course depends on the class nature of the state - if it is a bourgeois capitalist state or a proletarian socialist state?

In any case the police are part of the violence- and suppression-apparatus of the state regardless of its class content.
The Paris Communards struggled and died in the defense of their ideas. The banners of the revolution and of socialism are not surrendered without a fight. Only cowards and the demoralized surrender — never Communists and other revolutionaries.
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Soviet cogitations: 50
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Feb 2014, 05:02
Ideology: Trotskyism
Pioneer
Post 22 Jun 2014, 05:13
I have a close family in law enforcement as a detective. He lives in a small apartment, he struggles with paying for things alot of the time. And I believe police are exploited; they must work as a means of survival.
While the state exists, there can be no freedom. When there is freedom there will be no state. - V. I. Lenin
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 14448
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 22 Jun 2014, 06:44
The product of a policeman's labor is the oppression of workers. So, while yes they are exploited, they are functionally class enemies.
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Soviet cogitations: 4465
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Mar 2010, 01:20
Ideology: None
Forum Commissar
Post 22 Jun 2014, 09:28
I don't know. They sound like workers to me. It's just that they're a type of worker that is used quite heavily in securing and stabilizing the interests of the oppressve classes. They are regularly sent to work in tasks that go heavily against working class interests, but that hardly makes them unique in such a role.

They're an instrument of the state (for better or worse). Most of them could be productive members in a socialist state. Unlike the inherent class enemies their sort of work won't suddenly cease to be necessary after the revolution.

Dagoth Ur wrote:
That said I wouldn't call them proletarian either. They're soldiers deployed at home.
Are you saying soldiers aren't either.

proletarian wrote:
But cops are still enforcers of the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, therefore they are more similar in class consciousness to petty-bourgeoisie.
I fail to understand why their lack of consciousness makes a difference. Large portions of the general working class don't have class consciousess but it doesn't change their relationship to their labour.
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