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Hungary 1956: Revolution or Counter Revolution?

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What’s your opinion on 1956?

Poor Hungarians! It was outrageous what they did to them!
32
33%
It’s a shame that it happened.
23
24%
I’m indifferent.
5
5%
They got what was coming for them.
11
11%
Those treacherous Hungarians deserved to be crushed beneath the righteous Soviet heel!
15
15%
Other...
11
11%
 
Total votes : 97
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Jun 2005, 23:41
Politburo
Post 26 Jul 2005, 07:20
What pleasant imagery you have brought us, Comrade. Looks like those Soviet tanks turned Hungary into quite the little utopia.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 25 Jan 2005, 10:55
Party Member
Post 26 Jul 2005, 13:13
No, it was to protect us!
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“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.” - Charles De Gaulle
Soviet cogitations: 142
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Mar 2004, 23:00
Pioneer
Post 28 Jul 2005, 05:52
Those are some sick and sad pictures Bendeguz, no Stalin statue deserves to be vandalized in such a way.

And it's obvious Hungarian's aren't that smart and against imperialism, if they were they wouldn't be sucking the E.U.'s balls.
"There's no reason for the establishment to fear me. But it has every right to fear the people collectively -I am one with the people."-Huey Newton
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Soviet cogitations: 4698
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Jun 2005, 23:41
Politburo
Post 28 Jul 2005, 11:57
Quote:
Those are some sick and sad pictures Bendeguz, no Stalin statue deserves to be vandalized in such a way.

And it's obvious Hungarian's aren't that smart and against imperialism, if they were they wouldn't be sucking the E.U.'s balls.


So what if Hungary's current government sucks? What country do you you live in, J.Jordan? My bet is that your current government sucks too.

And I can't believe that you would look at these images of horrendous violence and then make a remark about public vandalism.
Last edited by Methods on 29 Jul 2005, 11:08, edited 2 times in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 25 Jan 2005, 10:55
Party Member
Post 28 Jul 2005, 13:20
Sick and sad? sick and sad! SICK AND SAD!!

Here: SUFFER YOU STALINIST!!!


The following accounts of the demolition of the Stalin statue were collected in the 1980s and 1990s by researchers at the oral history archive of the 1956 Institute in Budapest. They convey a sense of the drama and unpredictability of the events of 23 October 1956 with the immediacy of firsthand impressions.

One eyewitness to the events was Ervin Kaas, a thirty-one year-old Catholic activist and clerk, who spent the rest of the 1950s in the notorious Recsek labour camp as a result of his participation in the uprising:

‘We arrived at Felvonulási Square between 7.30 and 7.45pm. There was a very large crowd. I climbed a tree and saw a truck around 30-40 metres from the statue, and just at that moment a wire cable was being attached to the statue by its neck, then the truck reared up a little, and you could feel that it was straining, then the sound of the engine went down a little, I looked at the statue, and saw that it hadn’t moved at all.’
The difficulty the iconoclasts faced in pulling down the statue is confirmed by other accounts. Mihály Nagy was another observer-participant in the action:

‘Several lorries had already tried to pull down the statue, even the strongest wire cables gave way, because from inside it had been strengthened with a huge great arch-shaped iron bar, so it really was no easy business to pull down the statue, the constructors had given it some thought, they wanted it to be a lasting creation. It would even have been hard to blow it up.’

Rezso Bóna, a worker and participant in the revolution who was later sentenced to ten years imprisonment, confirms the accounts of many other witnesses in his explanation of how the statue was finally brought down:

‘This is how the Stalin statue was brought down, they cut it at the boots with these blow torches, and fixed ropes to some Csepel 350 trucks, which they attached to the Stalin statue, and then toppled it from its base.’

The description of how the statue actually fell from István Kállay, a goldsmith who ran an underground radio station in 1956, makes it sound as if it were a human rather than a statue that toppled to the ground:

‘Now, the way it came down, really, it was like a rubber ball, it jumped up a couple of times before coming to a rest.’
After the statue’s successful demolition, which according to one witness took place at precisely 9.21pm, people sang the Hungarian national anthem, then someone stood on the base and made a short speech saying it symbolised the end of tyranny in Hungary.

The crowd dispersed quickly upon news of shooting around the building of Hungarian Radio, where another group of protesters had gathered that evening to demand the broadcast of their sixteen point programme. The demolition of the Stalin Statue was an act of great symbolic importance that arguably enabled the crowd to cross the threshold from political protest to revolution.

Insight into the carnivalesque atmosphere of the demonstrators at this early stage, before the bloodshed began, is given by the painter and writer Gábor Karátson:

‘Anyway, what people don’t usually say, is that people were very good humoured, it made a big impression on me, the way they called out, ‘Hold on little Joseph!’, I really like that. Because, as we know, he didn’t want to come down, it was hard to pull him down, and may people called out, ‘Hold on little Joseph!’ - which was in no sense a Stalinist shout, but was actually a little bit of popular sportsmanship, because there he was alone now, however big he might be, and we were so many, he also needed encouraging to hold on, and that’s the way people were.’

The Stalin statue was dragged the next day through the streets of Budapest to Blaha Lújza Square, where it was broken up into pieces by souvenir hunters. One of Stalin’s hands was taken by the actor Sándor Pécsi, who, after the restoration of Soviet power, buried the relic in his garden where it remained until the late 1980s. It was eventually unearthed and bought by the Hungarian History Museum for 40,000 forints.

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“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.” - Charles De Gaulle
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 29 Jul 2005, 03:05
I thought I might comment on a couple of things here:

1. Comrade Bendeguz: I would recommend you be a little more humble. Just because you are Hungarian doesn't mean that you have a greater understanding of the situation than someone else.

2. I happen to know a man of Hungarian origin who participated in the 1956 events. He tells me that much of that revolution was not so much Soviet soldiers killing Hungarians but Hungarians killing each other (hardliner communists vs Nagy supporters)

3. I must say that while J.Jordan is sometimes understood as carrying the Soviet line, you must understand that carrying the 'freedom' American version line is also a little bit naive. A situation is never as easy to explain as it first appears, and I'm sure that a bit more reading on the subject will get you to see other points of view. I in particular am extremely interested in the Hungarian revolution as my favorite Soviet leader, Yuri Andropov, was one of the Soviets' main men there at the time. Although I have just started a book devoted to his role in that situation, I would like to get back to you when I finish.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 25 Jan 2005, 10:55
Party Member
Post 29 Jul 2005, 21:33
I understand that I do not have the most accurate view of what happened (for that you need my Grandfather and my Mothers Uncle) but I do find it distasteful that others have the belief that they have a greater understanding of what happened in 1956 when they are typing from a little computer in some obscure location from England or America and the have never even been to Hungary! If a Hungarian, who visits Hungary repeatedly, has his whole family in Hungary, interviews them and asks them of their opinions and beliefs about what happened at that period, doesn’t have a better understanding than most at what happened, than who does?
You are correct that it was for a small part a civil war, but it was almost unanimous that Hungary wanted to be free of ‘communism’. All around the country Russian language books were burnt in schools, Communist literature, portraits of Stalin and Rakosi were burnt in the streets (which is why my father was beaten half to death by the Russians for)

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The revolution was truly popular and the Russian-friendly Communist at the time were afraid of being shot for their crimes during the Rakosi period...

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It was the Russians who fought the main fight; with there powerful tanks and trained troops, and they crushed the revolution. When I visit Budapest I can still see the bullet hole on many of the buildings (says something about our repair skills doesn’t it.)

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The man who wanted solidarity, freedom and independence for his homeland was shot after he was tricked out of the Yugoslavian embassy. It just goes to show that he really was a true Communist, albite an anti-Warsaw pact one, and not a CIA spy who would have fled to the U.S. embassy.

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It is the Heroes of Hungary I support, like my Mothers Uncle and the person you talked to Soviet78. All they had was a gun, a Molotov cocktail and a burning patriotism in their guts against the might of the Soviet army.

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But as history proved, that wasn’t enough…

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Just another victim of the Soviet Empire...

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“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.” - Charles De Gaulle
Soviet cogitations: 142
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Mar 2004, 23:00
Pioneer
Post 01 Aug 2005, 02:20
Quote:
What country do you you live in, J.Jordan? My bet is that your current government sucks too.

And I can't believe that you would look at these images of horrendous violence and then make a remark about public vandalism.


I made a remark about public vandalism because it shows that Nazism and americanism was alive and well in 1956 hungary. I do not even flinch at the "hurrendous violence" since every one of those counter-revolutionaries deserved to die.

It is in the interests of the Hungarian workers to uphold Stalin, since he is the path to communism. Unfortunately ignorance was still alive in parts of Hungary and some people were misled by reactionary Christian scum and Jewish/American capitalists.

In the end, we'll be victorious though. We were victorious in 1956 and we'll be victorious after we the people seize public power once again.
"There's no reason for the establishment to fear me. But it has every right to fear the people collectively -I am one with the people."-Huey Newton
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Soviet cogitations: 4698
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Jun 2005, 23:41
Politburo
Post 01 Aug 2005, 03:53
Quote:
It is in the interests of the Hungarian workers to uphold Stalin, since he is the path to communism.


Since you don't seem very well-informed on Hungary, I wouldn't advise that you preach anything to the workers of Hungary.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 17 Mar 2004, 23:34
Komsomol
Post 01 Aug 2005, 07:59
Communisms cannot work without the support of the people. Hungary is a very dark chapter in the history of the Soviet Union. Where I to have led, I would have ordered a pull out once aware that the people where that far against us. Any that supported us, would be free to leave with us to avoid a backlash.

Staying in Hungary was just bad for everyone, bad for the Hungarians who didnt want the Soviet Union and their imposed government, and bad for the Soviet Union due to the negative propaganda, and the wasted investments in resources spent on trying to enforce order and progress on an unwilling country. These resources and efforts would be better spent elsewhere.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Jun 2005, 23:41
Politburo
Post 01 Aug 2005, 11:21
Quote:
It is in the interests of the Hungarian workers to uphold Stalin, since he is the path to communism.


No, J.Jordan, Stalin cannot be seen as any kind of "path to communism" as his ambitions and interests lay only within the Soviet Union. He was not an internationalist, and therefore, not a communist.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 01 Aug 2005, 21:04
Quote:
Where I to have led, I would have ordered a pull out once aware that the people where that far against us. Any that supported us, would be free to leave with us to avoid a backlash.


The situation wasn't that simple. There are always going to be elements in an anti-establishment organization that will demand that you "pull out".

Hungary was a vital Soviet ally not only strategically but also ideologically. If the USSR had lost friendship with the country who knows what other rebellions would have started in Eastern Europe.

As quoted from Jonathan Steele's book "Andropov In Power": "The Irony [of the successful repression of the Hungarian Revolution'] was that fifteen years later the regime which [Andropov] had helped to install had become the most popular government in Soviet-controlled Eastern Europe".

The question we must ask ourselves (and which millions of Eastern Europeans, including the most hateful anti-communists of the past continually do) is "Was it worth it?"
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
Soviet cogitations: 142
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Mar 2004, 23:00
Pioneer
Post 03 Aug 2005, 06:39
Quote:
No, J.Jordan, Stalin cannot be seen as any kind of "path to communism" as his ambitions and interests lay only within the Soviet Union. He was not an internationalist, and therefore, not a communist.


Stalin fought for the interests of the world, to build a world of peace and prosperity.

But anyway who says communists must be "internationalist"? Anyone living in the era of imperialism knows it is impossible for internationalism and "permenant revolution" to succeed because imperialism (and their agents) is there to keep people in line. The best formula is obvious scattered/bloc resistance, IE the USSR, Korea, China, etc.

Hungary was a lost cause from the start, but vital to protection of the Socialist camp (if it were to go to the imperialists this would allow yankee/western missiles to be even closer to the USSR). The interests of Hungarian fascists comes second.
"There's no reason for the establishment to fear me. But it has every right to fear the people collectively -I am one with the people."-Huey Newton
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Soviet cogitations: 4698
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Jun 2005, 23:41
Politburo
Post 03 Aug 2005, 11:37
Quote:
But anyway who says communists must be "internationalist"?


Marx, repeatedly.


Quote:
Anyone living in the era of imperialism knows it is impossible for internationalism and "permenant revolution" to succeed because imperialism (and their agents) is there to keep people in line.


Who ever said that the intended outcomes of communism were realistic?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Jun 2005, 23:41
Politburo
Post 04 Aug 2005, 01:56
Might I add, J.Jordan, that, seeing as Stalin died three years before Hungary, 1956, your proposition for the workers of Hungary to "uphold Stalin" is, I dare say, slightly impractical.
Last edited by Methods on 04 Aug 2005, 06:02, edited 2 times in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 25 Jan 2005, 10:55
Party Member
Post 04 Aug 2005, 01:58
Quote:
"The Irony [of the successful repression of the Hungarian Revolution'] was that fifteen years later the regime which [Andropov] had helped to install had become the most popular government in Soviet-controlled Eastern Europe".


Yes, it is ironic. Kadar's Goulash Socialism became one of the most effective and pleasant Socialisms of all. But if one does not move with the times, they shall stagnate.
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“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.” - Charles De Gaulle
Soviet cogitations: 142
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Mar 2004, 23:00
Pioneer
Post 04 Aug 2005, 19:58
Quote:
Marx, repeatedly


Well then I guess you are either A)An "orthodox Marxist" IE, liberal democrat who thinks marx is "cool" B) a Trotskyist. Lenin outlines that in the era of imperialism, to loosely quote him, nationalism is the vehicle of the proletariat that will take them to victory.

But then again maybe you are living in a 19th century factory with spinning jennies, because that is the only plausible economic model that internationalism could possibly work with.

Quote:
Who ever said that the intended outcomes of communism were realistic?


If you're trying to yank my fragging chain then I will stop speaking to you because you obviously know nothing about Marxism or communist history. You take everything rightists tell you and don't know how to take it with a grain of salt.

Quote:
Might I add, J.Jordan, that, seeing as Stalin died three years before Hungary, 1956, your proposition for the workers of Hungary to "uphold Stalin" is, I dare say, slightly impractical.


Very funny. You know exactly what I am talking about. And even though the Soviets eventually betrayed Stalin thought too and collapsed into what hungary wanted to be (A liberal corporate mafia run cesspool), nobody knew this in 1956.
"There's no reason for the establishment to fear me. But it has every right to fear the people collectively -I am one with the people."-Huey Newton
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Soviet cogitations: 1180
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 25 Jan 2005, 10:55
Party Member
Post 05 Aug 2005, 04:32
So what you are saying is that we wanted to become a ‘liberal corporate mafia run cesspool’? That we decided it would be a jolly good idea to chain ourselves up again. To run away from the beautiful utopia that was so clearly working, where everybody was happy, and dissent was a seed sowed the evil Trotskyites and CIA agents?
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“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.” - Charles De Gaulle
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Soviet cogitations: 4381
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 05 Aug 2005, 20:32
I find that the supression of the Hungarian Revolution was ultimately a necessary evil. Though the socialist systems of Eastern Europe would collapse eventually, the success of the revolution might have resulted in ultimate collapse sooner (that the system collapsed eventually should not discredit the accomplishments of the socialist Hungerian regime after the attempted revolution).

The Stalinist rule of Rakosi ultimately led to an attempt at great liberalism on the part of Nagy (perhaps too quick and reminiscent of the Gorbachev reforms), but this also led to the rule of a man with conservative values but rather liberal policies (Kadar).
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
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Soviet cogitations: 1180
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 25 Jan 2005, 10:55
Party Member
Post 08 Aug 2005, 09:50
Kadar was a good man. He was not perfect, and ultimately he was a dictator, and did cause suffering for many, but nowhere near as many as in lots of other countries. For a brief while, he made a type Socialism work, in a weird, unusual way, but for a while, it worked.
Both my parents and I have respect for Kadar. I personally admire him. He made Hungary a stable, comfortable and safe place to live. Oh yes, it had its problems, like having to wait 5 years for a car, and countless others, but it was not bad.
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“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.” - Charles De Gaulle
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