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Greek elections

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Oct 2004, 15:15
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Post 26 Jan 2015, 11:29
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(http://www.rizospastis.gr)

Quote:
The strengthening of the KKE marks a tendency for forces to rally around it again

In the elections on the 25th of January, the KKE received 5.5% of the vote, an increase of 1% (+ 60,000 votes) in comparison to the parliamentary elections of 2012, marking a positive trend pf forces to rally around the KKE again, a trend that had also been witnessed in the EU parliamentary elections, the regional and local elections, in the KKE’s initiatives in the labour movement.

The KKE achieved third place in 11 electoral regions: 2nd region of Piraeus, Samos, Lesvos, Lefkada, Zakynthos, Kephalonia, Kerkyra, Larisa, Trikala, Prebeza, Boiotia.

The KKE had 15 MPs elected ( it had 12)

  • The GS of the CC of the KKE, Dimitris Koutsoumpas, in his statement saluted the thousands of our country’s workers and young people that responded to the KKE’s appeal and contributed today to its strengthening, confirming the positive trend for the rallying of forces around the party again. In particular, he saluted those who voted for the KKE for the first time, because they appreciated its firmness, consistency and selflessness.
  • The election results reflect the great discontent and anger of the people against ND and PASOK, the parties that plunged the people into poverty and unemployment during the economic crisis. They express to a great extent the false hope that the new government of SYRIZA might follow a political line in favour of the people. The formation of a government of SYRIZA –either on its own or in a coalition government- will follow the beaten track: the EU one way street, the tactics of limited demands, retreat and compromise, the commitments to big capital, monopolies, the EU and NATO.
  • It is negative that a Nazi party maintains a high percentage amongst the electorate.

Below you can find the full statement of the GS of the CC of the KKE and a table with the complete results:

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STATEMENT OF THE GS OF THE CC OF THE KKE DIMITRIS KOUTSOUMPAS ON THE ELECTION RESULTS OF 25th JANUARY 2015

First of all, we would like to salute the thousands of working people in our country, the young people that responded to the appeal of the KKE and contributed to its strengthening today, confirming the positive tendency of forces to rally again around the KKE, the tendency to regain votes. This tendency appeared last year, in the EU parliamentary elections, the regional and municipal elections and continued in all the various struggles of the people, in the labour, trade union and wider people’s movement.

In particular we would like to salute the people who voted for the KKE for the first time, because they appreciated its firmness, consistency and selflessness.

As a whole, the election results reflect the great discontent and anger of the people against ND and PASOK, the parties that plunged the people into poverty and unemployment during the economic crisis.

Of course they express to a great extent the false hope that the new government of SYRIZA might follow a political line in favour of the people.

Based on the official statements and positions of SYRIZA before and during the election campaign, the KKE has assessed that the new composition of the Parliament and the formation of a government of SYRIZA –either on its own or in a coalition government- will follow the beaten track: the EU one way street, the commitments to big capital, monopolies, the EU and NATO with the negative implications for our people and the country. Once again the people will pay the price for these choices.

We consider particular negative the fact that a Nazi party, a party with specific criminal murderous activity, a party that was formed by the mechanisms of the system, a party that is clearly against the interests of the people, has received again a significant percentage of the electorate’s votes.

As whole, we assess that the line of counterattack and rupture with the capitalist path of development, the EU and against the policies that support this path through assimilation and passivity must be strengthened among the people and the movement.

The KKE will increase its efforts and initiatives regarding the acute problems of the workers and the people, with our proposals for the relief of the unemployed, the families fro the popular strata, the self-employed, the farmers and the students.

It will increase its efforts for the regroupment of the labour and people’s movement, the construction of the people’s alliance in order for the people to realize their hopes and expectations and free themselves for the yoke of the monopolies.

We will fight both inside and outside the parliament, with the strength that the people gave to our party so as to reveal the plans that are being concocted against the people.

We will fight dynamically as the militant workers’-people’s opposition, as the organizer and the driving force of the workers’ struggle and the people’s alliance for the survival of the people and also for the prospect of a radical overthrow.

We wish strength to all of you. We continue our struggle! Thank you.


http://inter.kke.gr/en/articles/The-str ... -it-again/

Meanwhile, it has already been announced that Syriza will form a coalition government with the right-wing Independent Greeks (ANEL) after only an hour of "talks". They probably had an agreement before the elections already. A party that garners votes by peddling conspiracy theories and populism. Nobody is surprised except for the Syriza fan club in the western left, I guess. Egg, meet face. Face, egg.

Sniping aside, it remains to be seen what the new government will look like. The inevitable disillusionment with Syriza could lead to radicalisation either to the left or right. The strong support for Golden Dawn is indicative and deeply troubling. It is imperative that the working-class movement doesn't stay passive, but fights back against this government just as it did against the previous one.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
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Post 26 Jan 2015, 14:18
The KKE is behind To Potami and the Golden Dawn. 5.49% is low and weak. The sectarian isolation of the KKE, which is totally contrary to Lenin's teachings, is the main explanation for this. The only thing that saves the KKE is its rooting in some working class unions, but how long will this social basis last?

" the tactics of limited demands, retreat and compromise" : This is the most ridiculous statement that I have ever read. Limited demands, retreat and compromise are part of the basis of tactics in general. As Lenin used to say, the first thing you need to do is to differentiate between offensive and defensive situations. The KKE is only proving that it has no understanding of tactics and strategy. It has been repeating the same bullshit for years, like a trotskyist parrot. The world changes but the KKE remains the same.

During the whole capitalist crisis the KKE hasn't been able to strenghten itself. This isn't normal. In 2009 it received 7.6%, and now only 5.49%. Yet I haven't seen any self-criticism from the KKE. They are rejoicing because they received 5.49% of the votes instead of 4.50%? In May 2012 they obtained 8.5%!

How did Syriza came to this great victory? Opportunism? People are not fools. Syriza won because they fought for a limited demand: the end of austerity. Simple and efficient, just like the Bolsheviks fought for a "democratic dictatorship", for a "republic", made compromises with the petty-bourgeoisie (the Mensheviks and SR). The Truth is that the KKE's sectarian isolation contributed to the growth of SYRIZA and the doom of the Communist Party.

Even if SYRIZA fails, which remains to be seen, It's highly doubtful that the KKE could manage to strenghten itself signficantly. Passivity and inaction are always deadly in politics. People will see SYRIZA in action and just forget about the Communist Party.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Oct 2004, 15:15
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Post 26 Jan 2015, 16:00
If 5.49% is weak, what is strong? 7% in France? What a difference a few percentage points can make! 2% in Italy maybe? Let's have no more of these percentages.

In any case, you're out of touch if you think that SYRIZA can end austerity, even if it wants to:

Quote:
The Greek election won’t end the fight
Jan
2015
Friday 23rd
posted by Morning Star in Features

When in local government Syriza supported reactionary changes to industrial relations and hiving off municipal services to NGOs, none of which bodes well for the future, argues the Communist Party of Greece (KKE)

Kevin Ovenden’s article Athens Stands on the Verge of its Liberation painted a picture of the situation in Greece today which has nothing to do with reality and misleads the Morning Star’s readers.

He argued that Syriza belongs to the “radical left” and that the impending election of a Syriza government marks a rupture with the European Establishment.

He attempted to depict Syriza as the historic successor of the titanic struggles of the communist movement in Greece in the 20th century.

Greece’s anti-fascist resistance forces the National Liberation Front (EAM), the Greek People’s Liberation Army (ELAS), and the Democratic Army of Greece (DSE) which fought the US and British-backed imperialist government between 1946 and 1949 came into fierce confrontation with the fascist occupier, imperialism and the class enemy in Greece, paying the price with thousands of dead, years of persecution, torture and exile.

By contrast the president and leading officials of Syriza are feted in the mansions of the plutocracy, the IMF, in Texas, in the Bilderberg Group meeting at Lake Como in Italy, in the City of London.

They loudly declare that Greece’s membership of the European Union and Nato is not disputed.

We must not restrict ourselves to the title of a party and how it describes itself — “left wing,” “anti-austerity” — if we want to examine its true character.

The reality is that Syriza accepts the strategy of the EU and capitalism. It has emerged as the new social-democratic party in the place of Pasok, a new pole in the two-pole bourgeois political system.

That doesn’t mean that New Democracy and Syriza do not have differences — simply that their differences express existing differences inside the eurozone countries, among sections of the financial elite, bourgeois class and businessmen.

The one view, which at the moment prevails in the European Commission, the EU and Germany, talks about a restrictive political line, continuing austerity measures so each country can move out of the “crisis phase” and so the eurozone does not further slide into crisis.

There is another view that talks about an “expansive” political line, as the IMF and Mario Draghi from the European Central Bank do.

They say that ready money must be provided to the businessmen in order for the capitalist economies to start to develop again.

This is the essence of the debate and it has nothing to do with the interests of the working class or its allies.

Its lack of strategic differences with the line taken by New Democracy is expressed by Syriza’s electoral lists, which include many “pro-memorandum” (the accord signed between the Greek government and IMF pledging huge spending cuts) figures from Pasok and other parties. These include Pasok theoretician Konstantinos Tsoulakos, former minister Theodora Tzakri and former Defence Ministry chief of staff Nikos Toskas.

Syriza has abandoned its radical demagogy, especially in relation to membership of the imperialist inter-state union that is the EU.

Its president Alexis Tsipras has repeatedly made clear that Greece will retain membership: “Greece has some institutional obligations as an equal member of the EU, our obligations are to achieve the fiscal goals.”

“We have an institutional obligation to have balanced budgets.”

“We must observe the founding treaties of the EU, this is an absolute obligation.”

We should bear in mind the consequences of these “institutional obligations” for healthcare, pensions, education, foreign policy, immigration and so on.

Tsipras is equally clear on the issue of Greece’s membership of Nato.

“Our country is committed to the institutional framework and agreements in relation to Nato.”

A Syriza government would continue to provide Nato with access to Greek airspace and waters, the use of its infrastructure and the Suda base from which it can continue to butcher people.

It would continue to provide frigates for Nato missions in the Indian Ocean and elsewhere.

We would continue to be entangled in imperialist plans in a region full of flashpoints and tensions — the Aegean, Cyprus ...

Some say we are hasty to judge. That we should wait and see how Syriza in government will operate.

But Syriza is not an untried, untested political force. It supported the Maastricht Treaty. It supported Greece’s accession to the euro.

In local government it supported reactionary changes to industrial relations and hiving off municipal services to NGOs.

Syriza’s candidate for the prefecture of Attica Rena Dorou said before local elections that she would abolish the memorandum in the region if elected.

After the election, as the new prefect, she has voted for and implemented the budget drafted by her predecessor, a pro-memorandum figure from Pasok.

This is a budget that provides tens of millions of euros to business interests and crumbs to projects related to people’s living conditions, such as anti-flood and anti-earthquake infrastructure.

In the municipality of Drapetsona-Keratsini, the Syriza-controlled council decided to end permanent, stable work with real rights for local government workers and hired 485 workers on two-month contracts, contracts for only 135 days a year and contracts that provided only five days’ work a month.

This at a time when Communist mayors are fighting to ensure that no workers are dismissed, against “flexible” labour relations, for the reduction of taxes, the abolition of nursery fees and the expansion of municipal services.

We can also look at Syriza’s stance in the trade union movement. Over the past two years, it has not tried to utilise its increased electoral support to mobilise trade unionists but has fostered passivity and the softening of workers’ demands.

It has told workers to stay at home and wait for a Syriza government, their alleged “saviour.”

It wages war on the class-oriented trade union movement PAME.

Trade union elections in Greece are different to those in Britain — we vote for a slate for the executive committee as a whole and not for individual posts.

Each trade union grouping puts forward its own slate of candidates and elects the number of seats on the basis of the percentage they receive.

Syriza participates in joint electoral slates with PASKE, the Pasok-oriented movement, and DAKE, the New Democracy aligned movement, against PAME in dozens of trade unions.

In the private sector, where it has a trade union majority, it signs unacceptable agreements — recently in the Veropoulos supermarket chain it agreed to wage reductions of between 10 and 12 per cent.

There should be no illusions that the “leftwingers” in Syriza will have a positive effect. They are the same

people who voted for Maastricht and the euro.

First they said they would never accept any “pro-memorandum” figures on their electoral lists. Now they have them, they say there should be no “pro-memorandum” ministers.

They’ll probably end up with pro-austerity ministers and adjust their demand to saying there should be no “pro-memorandum” prime ministers.

The Communist Party of Greece (KKE) has a diametrically opposed approach. Through important struggles and mass political work it demonstrates that whatever bourgeois management formula is followed, while Greece remains in the framework of the EU, Nato and capitalist development it will not benefit the working class.

We fight for the emancipation of the working class and the people from social democracy and opportunism.

We struggle to isolate fascism in neighbourhoods and workplaces.

We fight for the regrouping of the labour movement and the formation of a people’s alliance against the monopolies and against capitalism.

The KKE calls on the workers to support it in the elections so that there can be a strong workers’ and people’s opposition inside and outside parliament the day after the elections.

The KKE will not support any government that is bound by the anti-people strategy of the EU and capital.

We are ready to play a role in a workers’ government, where the people will be the masters of the economy and control state power — a government that will unilaterally cancel the debt, disengage from all imperialist organisations and socialise the monopolies.

This article was produced by the International Section of the Communist Party of Greece.


http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-4b ... -the-fight

The fight is only beginning. We would all like it to be otherwise, but apparently a direct disenchantment with SYRIZA is necessary to get things moving.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 26 Jan 2015, 16:41
Man, I thought Tsipras was genuine, but he's just a 21st century asshole.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Oct 2004, 15:15
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Post 26 Jan 2015, 17:17
Well, I think he is a genuine representative of the "post-communist" left, of the 21st-century "democratic socialism" of the Party of the European Left.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 Jun 2006, 02:14
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Post 26 Jan 2015, 18:56
Quote:
"In the elections on the 25th of January, the KKE received 5.5% of the vote, an increase of 1% (+ 60,000 votes) in comparison to the parliamentary elections of 2012, marking a positive trend pf forces to rally around the KKE again, a trend that had also been witnessed in the EU parliamentary elections, the regional and local elections, in the KKE’s initiatives in the labour movement."


Really? a 1% increase marks "a positive trend pf forces to rally around the KKE again"? I'm sorry, but if anyone is rallying forces it's SYRIZA.

It's memerizing to see a stalinist party like the KKE to behave like a bunch of trots. They remind me of the trots here who think they've made an amazing election because they got 2%.

SYRIZA had to form government. And they couldn't even negotiate with the KKE. That is a ship that unfortunately has sailed. It was the KKE's time to show they can be in government, force SYRIZA to move further to the left and make the EU tremble.

But no. They'd rather be a mouse's head than a lion's tail. If Tsipras is an 21st century asshole, then the KKE behaves like a mid-20th century stubborn asshole.


"Where Argentina goes, Latin America will go".
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Oct 2004, 15:15
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Post 26 Jan 2015, 19:21
Syriza's decision is KKE's fault? How do you figure that? This morning, the press said that Tsipras was going to meet with ANEL first, and then KKE and The River. An hour later, the ANEL coalition was already formed, and the other two were never heard from again. Not that it would have led to much otherwise, but still. This coalition had been prepared for some time, and now a man who believes that "Jews don't pay taxes" may become Defence Minister.

I think the assessment of the results is pretty realistic, too. I'm not reading anywhere that they've had "an amazing election", just that they're recovering from the low point of the previous election, which is true. That result came in an election where for the first time we saw a polarisation between ND on one hand, and Syriza on the other. That polarisation was even stronger this time around, so to remain standing and even grow a bit under those circumstances is an achievement.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
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Post 26 Jan 2015, 21:37
Why was there no polarization between ND and the KKE? That would have been an achievement. People voted for the party which opposed austerity and proposed immediate and concrete measures to improve the life of many. They might betray the people, or they might not. But one thing is certain: people were not interested by the KKE's ideas. That's a problem in itself.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Feb 2014, 12:33
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Post 27 Jan 2015, 00:32
The KKE has been in the black since 1991 when the KKE Central Committee majority decided to purge 45 percent of its members for being too reformist. They've peddled the same line since, even quietly rehabilitating Stalin at the 18th Congress. The failure of the KKE is seen in the growth of SYRIZA. Tsipras, just like Pablo Iglesias Turrión in Spain (his girlfriend is still a member of the communist party), was a member of the young communist league but left because of KKE sectarianism (when the KKE left the Coalition of Left, of Movements and Ecology in 1991). For once I agree with OP-Bagration, the KKE is an utter failure. You could say what you like about bourgeoisie hegemonism, but what is clear is that old liberal values are very much under attack in Greece and the KKE's failure to not even grow one full percent is proof of incompetence. Of course, not everything is gloom and doom, that the KKE has been able to survive as a parliamentary organizations after 1991 is proof of vitality. The problem with the KKE has never been question of vitality or organizational degregation, but rather the unwillingness to modernize. They still show fidelity to the USSR, to Stalin. Let's face it, rehabilitating the USSR, even if some people here really want too, is an all but impossible task. Communism has become synonymous with dictatorship because of the USSR. Instead holding tight of what the movement had, the movement should focus on what it wants (without referencing to the past).
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Post 27 Jan 2015, 00:40
Another problem is secterianism on the communist left; if the KKE, the Front of the Greek Anticapitalist Left, the Marxist–Leninist Communist Parties of Greece, the Workers' Revolutionary Party and the Organisation of Internationalist Communists of Greece were one party, the communists would have been one party the party would have garnered 6,32% of the vote, which doesn't sound much, but then the KKE would have been the third largest party, and not the fifth largest party. Numbers matter.

I for one am happy with the election. I believe in SYRIZA. If they do a good job, or at least an OK job, Podemos could win in Spain (already the largest party in opinion polls, and with talks on the possibility split in the social democratic PSOE this number could increase). If Podemos win, who is not to say that the Left Party in France, the Greens in the UK (i doubt this however) or Die Linke in Germany can't win? Basic neoliberal thoughts are losing hegemony and legitimacy across Europe. The coming elections in Europe may push the continent to the left, and may signal (if you're an optimist) the defeat of neoliberal hegemony. With neoliberalism dead in Europe, the future will indeed look brighter.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 May 2009, 19:37
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Post 27 Jan 2015, 02:55
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/greeceatlse/2012/09/02/understanding-the-greek-communist-party/

Well, KKE's main power do not come from the ballot box, so it is difficult to assess their actual power by counting the national election votes. Do No 14 have any number on trade unions' elections, students' elections or membership numbers of other popular organizations of KKE?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Oct 2004, 15:15
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Post 28 Jan 2015, 08:59
I don't know about all of them, but I recall that PAME, the class-oriented trade union front, claims 850,000 members. Some figures on trade union and student elections, respectively, in recent years:

http://21centurymanifesto.wordpress.com ... on-centre/

http://int.kne.gr/index.php/press/158-t ... -elections

The article you posted is a good one, and I often refer people to it if they want an "objective" academic analysis of the KKE that doesn't just consist of bitter Trotskyists and social-democrats complaining that the KKE isn't doing what they want.

The same author also recently wrote a paper on the left government in Cyprus in 2008-13. This government was actually led by a communist party, and yet it fell into all sorts of pitfalls, many of them of its own devising, unprompted by political pressure from the right or anything like that. In the end, the left emerged far weaker from the experience. It's a good note of caution for Greece, where the leftist government party doesn't even claim to be communist.

OP-Bagration wrote:
Why was there no polarization between ND and the KKE? That would have been an achievement. People voted for the party which opposed austerity and proposed immediate and concrete measures to improve the life of many. They might betray the people, or they might not. But one thing is certain: people were not interested by the KKE's ideas. That's a problem in itself.


I don't know, why isn't there polarisation between the CPUSA and the Republicans? Why are the communists not yet the first or second party in most of Europe? What a pointless comment.

leftguy wrote:
The KKE has been in the black since 1991 when the KKE Central Committee majority decided to purge 45 percent of its members for being too reformist. They've peddled the same line since, even quietly rehabilitating Stalin at the 18th Congress. The failure of the KKE is seen in the growth of SYRIZA. Tsipras, just like Pablo Iglesias Turrión in Spain (his girlfriend is still a member of the communist party), was a member of the young communist league but left because of KKE sectarianism (when the KKE left the Coalition of Left, of Movements and Ecology in 1991). For once I agree with OP-Bagration, the KKE is an utter failure. You could say what you like about bourgeoisie hegemonism, but what is clear is that old liberal values are very much under attack in Greece and the KKE's failure to not even grow one full percent is proof of incompetence. Of course, not everything is gloom and doom, that the KKE has been able to survive as a parliamentary organizations after 1991 is proof of vitality. The problem with the KKE has never been question of vitality or organizational degregation, but rather the unwillingness to modernize. They still show fidelity to the USSR, to Stalin. Let's face it, rehabilitating the USSR, even if some people here really want too, is an all but impossible task. Communism has become synonymous with dictatorship because of the USSR. Instead holding tight of what the movement had, the movement should focus on what it wants (without referencing to the past).


You forget to mention that the CC minority was "purged" not for being "too reformist" but because they wanted to dissolve the party. Earlier, they had been responsible for the disastrous participation (within the coalition you mention) in two governments. Either event could have killed off the party, as happened in other countries. We wouldn't even be talking about the "utter failure" of the communists in keeping their parliamentary positions in the face of massive opposition from the entire establishment, because there would not have been any communists in parliament, there would not have been a PAME (founded in 1999), there would not have been a regroupment of the international communist movement (initiated by the KKE), etc. The conflict in 1991 meant losing the youth organisation KNE (and Tsipras, but is that such a loss?), but now the KNE is stronger than ever. What is the loss?

If only the communists in the Netherlands, Italy, Britain and other European countries had been as numerous, as dedicated, as determined, and as ruthless as the KKE majority in dealing with the deliberate, concerted attempt to destroy the communist movement. As a result of the same tendencies that the KKE successfully defeated, we now have to build everything from the ground up. Of course, communists will take on even challenges like that, but compared to that, losing 45% of a leadership isn't such a bad sacrifice when that percentage doesn't lead the party, but misleads it.

It's also not so much that the KKE "shows fidelity to Stalin" as that they made an analysis of the character of the Soviet Union and why it fell. This, I think, is indispensable. When your party has oriented itself towards the USSR until its fall, you can't just run away from that and pretend that nothing changed in 1991 or since then. Opportunists pretend that they are political virgins. When asked, "What about the Soviet Union, what about Stalin?", they say, "Oh, that wasn't us. We'll get it right next time, trust me." Communists deal with this part of our history and take responsibility for it like grown-ups, and they connect this to their own party's history and to their own conception of socialism.

leftguy wrote:
Another problem is secterianism on the communist left; if the KKE, the Front of the Greek Anticapitalist Left, the Marxist–Leninist Communist Parties of Greece, the Workers' Revolutionary Party and the Organisation of Internationalist Communists of Greece were one party, the communists would have been one party the party would have garnered 6,32% of the vote, which doesn't sound much, but then the KKE would have been the third largest party, and not the fifth largest party. Numbers matter.


Why do they matter? Independent Greeks are the sixth party at 4.8%. They actually lost seats compared to the last election. And yet the great leftists of SYRIZA have no problem forming a coalition with one of the losers of the election, whose ideas have been rejected by the electorate in comparison to three years ago. The Golden Dawn are the third force, and yet they're so toxic that nobody wants to come within touching distance of them.

The only numbers that matter are the 50 bonus seats and the 50%+1 required to win a majority.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
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Post 28 Jan 2015, 22:26
Quote:
I don't know, why isn't there polarisation between the CPUSA and the Republicans? Why are the communists not yet the first or second party in most of Europe? What a pointless comment.

I haven't seen any "SYRIZA" winning the elections in the United States either. Thus the comparison is wrong. Yes, if the PSL won the next politicial elections I would also criticize the CPUSA. European communists are on the right wing of the communist movement, and the KKE is on the left wing. Both are wrong.

I believe that the KKE should form a coalition with SYRIZA against austerity, without taking part in their government. They would do something great for the people without losing their freedom to criticize SYRIZA. They like to praise comrade Stalin and I can't blame them for that. However Stalin's Communist Party made the Popular Fronts in Europe and broke with the sectarian line. The KKE, however, is behaving like a trotskyist party. They are the first trotsko-stalinists in the whole history of the Communist movement.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Oct 2004, 15:15
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Post 29 Jan 2015, 09:10
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree about the coalition, but I should point out again that it wasn't up to them this time around. That may not have mattered much, as the KKE said they would neither participate in nor "tolerate" a government. But they would (and will) vote for any legislation that benefits the people.

Everyone is asking why the KKE wouldn't submit to SYRIZA, but nobody is asking why SYRIZA, if they were really so dedicated to the left, didn't just form a minority government, seeking support from the other parties depending on the issue. Any party blocking legislation that objectively benefits the working class for sectarian reasons would then look completely ridiculous.

You're right about the popular front, but that arose in a very specific situation. When the popular front was launched, Dimitrov specifically attacked "all emasculated theorizing, all barren play with abstract definitions" and the "mechanical transposition" from one country to another. France 1936 is not Greece 2015. Even in WWII, the Greek situation was quite different (see here).
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
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Post 29 Jan 2015, 13:03
I think that this text illustrates the KKE's dogmatism and crypto-trotskyism. They said: "There is no intermediate socio-economic system between capitalism and socialism; therefore there cannot be any intermediate type of power."

Two mistakes there:

1. Confusion between "socio-economic system" and "type of power". It's obvious that if you want to build a socialist society you will need a dictatorship of the proletariat. And yet, at the beginning, the system will still be capitalist, not socialist. Therefore the question of the "type of power" must not be confused with the question of the "socio-economic system".

2. When they said: "There is no intermediate socio-economic system between capitalism and socialism; therefore there cannot be any intermediate type of power. " This reminded me of this quotation from Trotsky: "Between Kerenskyism and the Bolshevik power, between the Kuomintang and the dictatorship of the proletariat, there is not and cannot be any intermediate stage, that is, no democratic dictatorship of the workers and peasants."

Lenin said that in order to have this transition from capitalism to socialism in Russia, in order to build the dictatorship of the proletariat, you HAD to go through a stage of transition, a transitional power, called the "democratic dictatorship". The KKE totally dismisses that with blatant dogmatism.

And indeed, it is perfectly possible that in some countries today, we still need some transitions, some class alliances with a part of the petty bourgeoisie in order to gather the conditions for a socialist revolution.

Dismissing the possibility of class alliances, of transitional stages, of compromises, even in the conditions of western capitalism, is totally contrary to Leninism.

And in the Greek situation, making a non-governmental alliance with SYRIZA against austerity would be, in my opinion, a perfectly acceptable compromise. I don't care if Greece remains in the UE or NATO on the short term. I really don't care because I know that statements against the EU or NATO are ridiculous and useless when you don't have the strength to get your country out of NATO or of the EU. But for borth, however, a left-wing Greece, a Greece that wouldn't accept the rules of the Troïka is an objective threat. For both, a Communist party that would accept to make a temporary alliance with SYRIZA would be an objective threat.

We made an alliance of this kind during the Popular Front, with the Socialist Party (SFIO) that wasn't better than SYRIZA. And I believe that this alliance helped us to grow, to strenghten ourselves, because we managed to make important popular reforms. Greece is in a situation that isn't much different: growing fascist threat, important economic crisis, and yet the KKE let SYRIZA take all benefits from the situation. Now they hope that SYRIZA will fail. But what if SYRIZA doesn't fail? What will they do?
Last edited by OP-Bagration on 29 Jan 2015, 19:50, edited 1 time in total.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 29 Jan 2015, 17:23
Dude, you started out so clever in this thread. Why do you disappoint me so much? It's not like sectarianism and popular fronts are the only two options available.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 29 Jan 2015, 19:50
There is different options depending on the situation. But sectarian people refuse any kind of alliance with other political parties/classes.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
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"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Aug 2004, 20:49
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Embalmed
Post 29 Jan 2015, 23:48
Is there not a chance, comrades, that this is just a last ditch effort within an EU member state to oppose the economic sanctions that have been placed upon them? The volatility of the last two elections in Greece show this, the apparent surge from almost nothing to the forefront of Podemos in Spain might suggest that this may be the case. When neither of these parties are explicitly campaigning for dropping the Euro and telling the ECB to get stuffed, despite earlier bluster (as has been covered in earlier thread about losing this consistency), when these two things are pretty much the main contributors to the economic and social woes of both Greece and Spain? This electoral volatility may either consolidate with a healthy party democracy, even consolidation of formerly tragically opposed sects into a single party, or simply fizzle away with disillusionment. Their workload is harder, perhaps, than a bona fide revolutionary organisation.

Of course, I could play devil's advocate as to why Syriza have been "opportunistic" or "revisionist" in their approach, following their previous 2012 claims of things like wanting to unilaterally leave NATO and innuendo towards dropping the Euro. I don't see that as being very helpful, despite the KKE being ultimately correct in their approach re: the true economic imperialism of the EU and how to solve Greece's woe in a spirit of solidarity with oppressed people around the world is the correct sentiment, at least Syriza has been successful in achieving one important aim - something no other group in Europe has achieved: putting an anti-austerity debate out there, to win that argument (with concessions, of course) with the Greek electorate and trying the best they can within the current framework to radically change things. I think it's a bit of a shame that the KKE decided to be the biggest fish in a small pond rather than being the fin on the shark-beast that Syriza *could* be!

I welcome the result. I applaud the Greek people who elected their second best chance of getting Greece back on track. It means a lot to me that Tsipras' first act as PM was to visit and lay a flower at a memorial to 200 Communist Partisans who ultimately defeated the fascist horde that occupied and tore Greece apart. The "government in exile" were Quislings I wouldn't even piss on if they were on fire, those collaborators who were brought back into the post-war and post-civil war governments cared about nothing but their own villas. Tsipras represents a continuation of those who rightfully laid down their lives killing fascists and traitors, and hopefully a break from this shattered, illegitimate history.

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The Greek people will win, the Spaniards will win, I am not anti-EU per se, neither are Syriza and Podemos, but they propose a new Europe based on solid social democracy, moving towards democratic socialism.

Edit:
Fact is, if Syriza want to get the Greek economy going, they have to force investment from their capitalists into the economy - they have a mandate to do so, and should. Economic stagnation at present is only caused by capitalists pulling a Reardon and going on "investment strike" when there are opportunities aplenty to invest, what with high unemployment (indeed, with a highly educated unemployed labour army), if they don't want to bloody well invest in what people need, then it is up to the government to seize assets and invest, pull a Roosevelt or a Stalin - put that money into things like renovating housing, renovating the docks, investing in social services of all kinds, investing massively in new energy tech. As far as I know, the Greek economy is a ginormous contributor to the overall production of olives, tobacco, citrus fruits within the EU, they have an economic standing and can pull a trump card. They should not be playing tentatively, they know they have the ECB and IMF by their balls and have a reasonable resource economy to fall back on, coupled with my fantasised seizure of unused assets, they have a royal flush. They should know this, otherwise the reaction from these letter organisations would not be so hysterical. Whether they will do any of that is another question, and will probably be a no. At least they're there.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 May 2009, 19:37
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 30 Jan 2015, 10:19
Erichs_Pastry_Chef wrote:
Of course, I could play devil's advocate as to why Syriza have been "opportunistic" or "revisionist" in their approach, following their previous 2012 claims of things like wanting to unilaterally leave NATO and innuendo towards dropping the Euro. I don't see that as being very helpful, despite the KKE being ultimately correct in their approach re: the true economic imperialism of the EU and how to solve Greece's woe in a spirit of solidarity with oppressed people around the world is the correct sentiment, at least Syriza has been successful in achieving one important aim - something no other group in Europe has achieved: putting an anti-austerity debate out there, to win that argument (with concessions, of course) with the Greek electorate and trying the best they can within the current framework to radically change things. I think it's a bit of a shame that the KKE decided to be the biggest fish in a small pond rather than being the fin on the shark-beast that Syriza *could* be!


We cannot say KKE is correct or not yet. Only history can answer that question.

You are true that KKE decided to be the biggest fish in a small pond, but it isn't the only thing that KKE wants. In fact, if it is the only purpose of KKE, then I will agree with everyone that KKE is very sectarian. However, that isn't the case.

KKE decided to be the biggest fish in their own pond and along with enlarging their pond. They do not want to work within the framework of old system, they want to create a new kingdom of their own. If KKE wanted to be a sect of ideological purity, they would not create PAME to gather the workers, PASEVE to gather the small businessmen, PASY to gather the poor farmers, MAS to gather the students and OGE to gather the women. Not to mention the Solidnet, the International Meetings of CPs, and the European Communist Initiative. In fact, the efforts of KKE had lead to the formation of some new Workers Parties in Eupore, who also agree with KKE's viewpoints.

What KKE want is not people voting for them, what KKE want is to make people understand and also thinking the same way as them, to make people realized that they have the power to change society, not letting some politicians deciding how the society will work.

So the people from SYZIRA and KKE can never sit in the same boat. One want to give people the fish, the other want to teach people to fish.
"Stalin brought us up — on loyalty to the people, He inspired us to labor and to heroism!" Soviet Anthem 1944.
Let's work hard and do valorous deed!
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Soviet cogitations: 2298
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 30 Jan 2015, 12:05
The problem with this kind of fishing is that it requires a lot of people to catch a fish, and yet only 5% of the masses support the KKE. In the meantime, people want to eat.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
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