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Soviet Revival in Eastern Ukraine?

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Soviet cogitations: 216
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Jul 2013, 05:04
Ideology: Other Leftist
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Post 17 Oct 2014, 03:10
Although the article is biased, seeing that it was written by The New York Times, I wanted to see what comrades here thought about the possibility of a Soviet Communist revival in the Eastern Ukraine.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/05/world ... .html?_r=0
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 17 Oct 2014, 05:56
I would say not really at the moment, because of all the politics drama that is going on there and the end of the ceasefire being less than 2 weeks away in all likelihood. In this context, reviving collective farms and nationalizing coal mines is more of an attempt to preserve the economy through government control because of the ruin that the war and 23 years of Ukraine brought to their supply chains. Although it does help with economic independence from the oligarchs, it will still take a long time until they do that and Zakharchenko in Donetsk and Plotnitsky in Lugansk are gone, and are replaced by someone like Mozgovoy.

Edit: On the other hand, an argument from yurasumy is that the "patriot games" of trying to coup Zakharchenko and Plotnitsky will just play into Washington's goal of creating general chaos in the former Ukraine. He doesn't really explain how, but according to him, even if an independent Novorossia takes Kiev, it would still be a defeat. I guess I can sympathize with that point of view, as pretty much the last thing Novorossia needs right now is armed coups.
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 18 Oct 2014, 04:35
Cassad writes that the workers of the Zugres Energo-Mechanical Plant has kicked out its proprietor and elected a manager instead. The text is the legal act that outlines the rights and responsibilities of the elected manager. It was approved by the DNR Supreme Soviet on October 14.

http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1848299.html
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
Soviet cogitations: 216
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Jul 2013, 05:04
Ideology: Other Leftist
Pioneer
Post 18 Oct 2014, 06:11
Thank you for the information, comrade. It would be interesting if the situation in Eastern Ukraine took on a more strongly class-based character and spread elsewhere. It is probably a long shot, but we can always hope!
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Aug 2007, 23:25
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
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Post 22 Oct 2014, 21:58
There does seem to be a sort of Communist revival in Novorussiya. There have indeed been cases of nationalisations and restarting of collective farms, which is a very good step forward. Also, the Communist Party of Donetsk is so far the only official political party, meaning Communists do have a solid base of support in the region.

Now this does not mean that the Socialist future of Novorossiya is guaranteed. Far from it. But it does give a clear possibility for Socialism to blossom in the region. In an independent Novorossiya that seems to be far more likely than in Ukraine proper.
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Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 23 Oct 2014, 22:14
Quote:
But it does give a clear possibility for Socialism to blossom in the region. In an independent Novorossiya that seems to be far more likely than in Ukraine proper.

Ukraine is now the poorest country in Europe where a socialist-oriented government would have an unimaginably hard task ahead just to reach the standards Ukraine had 30 years ago. "Novorossiya" ( in fact just parts of Donbass region, and not even the whole of it ) is a ruined anarchic quasi-state that has problems with providing basic things like food or gas ( but then so does Kiev ). How socialism can "blossom" in such a situation is really something only you might know. Then there is Russia which probably has the overwhelming stake in DNR/LNR power structures and certainly won't allow any "socialisms". Restarting collective farms is nothing new in E. Europe and nationalization is something regularly done in all sorts of places, especially in war times. The best they in Donbass could hope for is another Transnistria.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 25 Oct 2014, 05:30
Yeah they showed one of the new collective farms on tv here and said that collectivization was basically a forced measure because a lot of the land proprietors didn't pay wages to workers for months and then fled, but the harvest still needs to be collected and fields prepared for next year.
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jun 2015, 03:09
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 14 Jun 2015, 03:24
Somebody knows how to visit donetsk and the militia?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Jun 2015, 20:48
Pioneer
Post 18 Jun 2015, 13:42
polyclau wrote:
Somebody knows how to visit donetsk and the militia?

Most people go to Rostov in Russia and then take a bus to Donetsk.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jan 2010, 05:46
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
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Post 21 Jun 2015, 01:45
Is there actually anything socialist about the Donetsk and Luhansk Republics? From everything I've seen and read about them they seem more like they are run by fascists, putinists, and Russian nationalists. They seem to just use soviet imagery and terms to gain popular support. Their anti-lgbtq stance, imposing of Orthodox Christianity, and alleged attacks on Jews and Romani point more towards these being right-wing movements. Im shocked by how many communists are so openly supporting these groups.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 08 Nov 2007, 06:31
Embalmed
Post 21 Jun 2015, 02:03
Red Brigade wrote:
Is there actually anything socialist about the Donetsk and Luhansk Republics? From everything I've seen and read about them they seem more like they are run by fascists, putinists, and Russian nationalists. They seem to just use soviet imagery and terms to gain popular support. Their anti-lgbtq stance, imposing of Orthodox Christianity, and alleged attacks on Jews and Romani point more towards these being right-wing movements. Im shocked by how many communists are so openly supporting these groups.


No there isn't, and the communist party is banned AFAIK.

The reason many communists have sympathies is because the Banderists identify russians with our legacy and we are lumped in with them no matter how hard the western (ultra)left distances itself from the USSR, we believe in national self determination, and because stalinists are stalinists.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Sep 2011, 13:51
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
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Post 21 Jun 2015, 12:59
There's a difference between aligning with an organization opportunely and outright supporting them ideologically.

The communist party is not banned anywhere in the Ukraine including in the breakaway republics. They are being persecuted and attacked in Ukraine proper but are still allowed to exist and function.

They even still hold rallies and meetings in Kiev albeit infrequently and often under police protection by pulling in favors from influential opposition figures. This takes place despite the anti-Soviet and anti-Nazi symbolism laws that have been passed, and despite constant attacks or attempted attacks by far-right youths that are fought off by police protection.

In Donetsk they are actively involved in local politics and are working with the government albeit ideologically they have little in common. One is a communist party proper while the other is what has been stated above, i.e. Russian Nationalism that glorifies and longs for the greatness of the USSR through the use of Soviet imagery mixed in with Orthodox Christianity. It's an unoriginal and laughable common practice that has been talked about and condemned by all communists including most everyone on this site.

Still the argument here is an old one, you may either support the ideologically incompatible breakaway Peoples Republics opportunely for the time being who are allowing communists to freely and openly operate, or you might as well just sit back and watch the events unfold on TV like your favorite TV show.

As a communist you're obviously not going to support the Ukrainian government that hates you and does everything in its power to destroy you, and so the options here are very limited. If anyone's got a plan on how to overthrow both the Ukrainian government and the breakaway Republics then I'd like to know.

Either way I don't think things are going to change much from here on out at least for as long as the current Ukrainian regime is in power. The breakaway states are hardly any different from Moldovan Transnistria, and will most likely stay that way for a very long time even if the opposition reclaims power in Kiev within this decade.

I also think it's important for western backed violently coup-imposed nationalist governments to know that there will be a price to pay for such treachery. The loss of the Crimea, parts of the Donetsk and Luhansk set a perfect example in my mind for future wannabe Nulandists.

At the moment there is hardly anything socialist in the People's Republics, most everything is still privately owned. There are people's councils in the form of Soviets and there have been instances where enterprises were nationalized and lands collectivized but practically have been ineffective for many obvious reasons.

Unfortunately the economic situation in these Republics is worse off than in Ukraine proper, and on the whole both the Ukrainian and the People's governments have been incompetent.

Under the circumstances I see no reason why the communist parties on both sides of the conflict should not work together be it officially or clandestinely to further our common goals. Room for exploitation is ever increasing both in the Ukraine and in the People's Republics and we as communists should be in full support of that.

On the one hand the European Union's capitalists are treating the Ukraine like a pesky fly, always trying to appease their friends in America through mostly ineffective sanctions against Russia but then again not willing to completely stop doing lucrative business with their Russian counterparts; on the other hand Russian oligarchs are also cautiously treating the Ukrainian question, willing to help the Republics enough as to protect their interests, but never willing to outright annex the Republics, and seemingly unable to provide the necessary humanitarian aid required to help the breakaway states in full, evident in the fact that many stores in Donetsk have been recieving aid even from the European Union.

The only people to have truly benefited from all this are the American business giants; and I have to hand it to them. They truly are the best at politics. They got Europe and Russia to go to war economically over what should have been a rather internationally insignificant country; and in such have set just another anchor in their global economic dominance. Hell can you blame them?

Regardless the battle continues.

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!


EDIT:

Conscript wrote:
...we believe in national self determination...


I do not believe in national self determination as a general and immutable rule and neither do communists. Every scenario where a national question is present should be approached individually and relative to the circumstances at hand with an important factor being the imperialist one; but we as communists should always be striving to reduce borders and enhance international cooperation amongst the proletariat.

This of course does not mean I support destroying every last vestige of a cultural or national identity manifest within the country or countries of question; albeit this would be the inevitable eventual outcome in an ideal scenario whereby a well-functioning union of socialist states existed over the span of several centuries.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 23 Jun 2015, 22:22
Quote:
Either way I don't think things are going to change much from here on out at least for as long as the current Ukrainian regime is in power. The breakaway states are hardly any different from Moldovan Transnistria, and will most likely stay that way for a very long time even if the opposition reclaims power in Kiev within this decade.

Well Transnistria is a more-less normal state by breakaway state standards, albeit a mafia one, it's not DPR/LPR th at's actually and effectively ruled by gangsters and armed mobs who loot kill each other all time time, see Mozgovoy etc.
Also Transnistria lives peacefully and the everyday relations with Moldova are not that bad really, because the PMR, at the end of the day, is still economically more connected with the EU than Russia.
Also there's no hatred of Russians or Russian language in Moldova, unlike Ukraine. I think Moldova proper ( sans PMR ) is one of the the last outposts of sovok in Europe, their KPRF-style comparty ( which is BTW also pro-Europe now, lol ) still winning almost 50% of votes.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Sep 2011, 13:51
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
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Post 24 Jun 2015, 11:09
Loz wrote:
Well Transnistria is a more-less normal state by breakaway state standards, albeit a mafia one, it's not DPR/LPR that's actually and effectively ruled by gangsters and armed mobs who loot kill each other all time time, see Mozgovoy etc.


That's to be expected during war-time whereby there is a vacuum of power to be fought over. Luhansk in reality always did have a reputation for gangsterism and high crime rates. My sister used to work in a company that would often send her over there and she'd never feel safe in the hotel she always stayed in. Donetsk on the other hand was a much better place and some of the best Ukrainians I've ever known are from there.

To be even more fair, gangsterism exists everywhere in Ukraine including Kiev. My university group leader (староста) became famous for a while after witnessing a mafia style assassination of a store manager while he hid under a table. This was in the middle of the commercial Kiev district when he went out shopping for furniture. The assailants used silencers and wore ski masks, all very professional.

There were also several car bombings that took place in Kiev when I lived there; and let's not forget all the journalists that have been and are still being knocked off all the time in Kiev.

Transnistria also had to go through a similar war-time phase before a negotiated peace was settled, and I believe that pretty much the same outcome will eventually take place in the Ukraine.

Besides the situation in Donetsk is somewhat exaggerated in the media, and not all bad as the west likes to make it out to be.

A few days ago Kiev born pianist Valentina Lisitsa even gave a concert in Donetsk, and I have friends from Donetsk living in Kiev who regularly go back and forth to visit their families.

Loz wrote:
Also there's no hatred of Russians or Russian language in Moldova, unlike Ukraine.


I hardly think there's any real hatred for the Russian language among mentally stable Ukrainians. I mean it's a language after all, a form of verbal communication; and is an internationally recognised lingua franca just like English, Arabic or Spanish. Business wise, it's also the far more practical language in Ukraine. I spoke to an ex yesterday on Skype who works in Kiev and her company has a policy of using either Russian or Ukrainian for printing out documents, which means in reality everyone speaks and types in Russian. She's from Nikolaev and so I don't even know if she's ever had to type something out in Ukrainian. My first girlfriend was from Lvov, and although she primarily spoke in Ukrainian she always spoke to me in Russian. In Kiev Russian overwhelmingly predominates verbally; where less than 1 in 10 people actually use Ukrainian when speaking in their everyday lives, which is to be expected since the majority of people living in Kiev are actually from different parts of the Ukraine.

I'm sure you've seen videos where even right-sector members speak in Russian.


Another myth that I've had someone debunk for me is the one that speaking Russian in the Baltic states is somewhat taboo or something; like my mostly pro-European Union ex-girlfriend I talked about above from Nikolaev would tell me that the locals would not even respond were you to talk to them in Russian.

Then just last week another girl I know who moved to Moscow after the Maidan has recently been touring Europe at the invitation of film companies to attend film festivals and the like. One of the countries she went to was Lithuania and she told me that she had a great time there and that everyone was very nice to her and that they all spoke to her in Russian. She has all these photos on Instagram of herself blending in with the locals.

Not related but out of all the countries she visited she liked Croatia the most. She supposedly had a blast in a place called Makarska, and from the photos she posted it does look like a very beautiful place and reminded me a lot of Lebanon with its high coastal mountains.

Loz wrote:
I think Moldova proper ( sans PMR ) is one of the the last outposts of sovok in Europe, their KPRF-style comparty ( which is BTW also pro-Europe now, lol ) still winning almost 50% of votes.


Even with the Ukraine being the second poorest country in Europe in terms of per capita income, it is still more than twice that of Moldova; whereas the country that doubles Ukraine's per capita income is Romania which comes in at number 10.

That goes to show how bad Moldova is doing relatively. I've said this before a long time ago about a friend of mine who grew up with me in West Africa told me how aghast he was at the poverty he witnessed while driving through Moldova.

It is one of the great tragedies of the break-up of the USSR and breaks my heart every time to see our Moldovan brothers and sisters in such dire circumstances.
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The great art of life is sensation, to feel that you exist, even in pain.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Jun 2015, 20:48
Pioneer
Post 25 Jun 2015, 21:28
Red Brigade wrote:
Is there actually anything socialist about the Donetsk and Luhansk Republics? From everything I've seen and read about them they seem more like they are run by fascists, putinists, and Russian nationalists. They seem to just use soviet imagery and terms to gain popular support. Their anti-lgbtq stance, imposing of Orthodox Christianity, and alleged attacks on Jews and Romani point more towards these being right-wing movements. Im shocked by how many communists are so openly supporting these groups.

There is.
Watch Tarpley's interview who went there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV9OdaNEmWg

http://tarpley.net/eyewitness-report-fr ... -republic/
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Sep 2011, 13:51
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
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Post 28 Jun 2015, 20:15
Thanks for the links Sparky.

A lot of what was said in the interview is dubious at the best. For example he says that all the banks have been nationalised even though most of them had already been permanently closed for a while now; so in effect empty buildings have been nationalised.

His claim that Donetsk is starting a program to export mining machinery at such a scale so as to become the world leader in this field can also only be approached with scepticism. The same goes for the programs intended to collectivise farm land. There is no point in calling something socialist if it's ineffective.

Not to be misunderstood, I personally would be quite happy if any of these programs were to bear fruit so that a level of normalcy can return to the people of Donetsk and Luhansk like the life they knew before.

If these measures weren't the only ones that can be taken in order to prevent things from completely collapsing within the People's Republics, I would have said that they were a positive step forward onto socialism.

Under the economic blockade that the breakaway states are under, many large private businesses and enterprises whose headquarters are in Ukraine proper simply ceased to function within these Republics, and so the only logical step forward was to nationalise whatever remained.

A lot of what was nationalised including the heavy coal industry was done as an act of desperation as opposed to one seeking to build socialism.

Nevertheless it's naive to expect any steps the governments within the People's Republics are taking to produce a positive outcome so soon. I believe the political and military questions within the region have to be solved before economic planning and executing can effectively take place.

Recently the movement of civilians in and out of these areas has been tightened even more which only goes to further stifle the economic circumstances.


Anyway fuсk the politics. I stand in support and solidarity with the people of Donetsk and Luhansk because of the shelling they have had to endure whereby many civilians were killed including women and children while going out to buy bread or take a walk in the park.

Citizens under Ukrainian controlled territories have not had to endure any such hardship and still go on living just like nothing had happened with their corporate sponsored vacations to Odessa and Lviv.

To hell with the fighters, it's a soldiers duty to obey orders and sacrifice themselves and not a single one of them goes into battle blind, but there is no excuse for the millions of civilian lives destroyed or taken.


Young woman with her child in her arms killed during shelling of Donetsk.

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Pregnant young woman killed in her home during shelling of Donetsk.

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The great art of life is sensation, to feel that you exist, even in pain.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 17 Nov 2015, 22:40
Ideology: Maoist
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Post 19 Nov 2015, 18:56
Full support to the communists in the East!
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