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Israel kills 19 people in a school in Gaza

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Soviet cogitations: 78
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Nov 2014, 02:42
Pioneer
Post 16 Nov 2014, 20:27
Strangelove, your statements are rather childlike. Just because I hold more conservative, traditional values than you do, the same ones that many Communists held, from Stalin to Mao, doesn't mean I am wrong. Re: the "Palestinians" the word didn't even exist until the Romans renamed Judea that in order to try to de-Judeaise the territory after the Roman-Jewish wars. There has never been a state known as "Palestine" at any point in history. You cannot show me on any historical map a country called "Palestine". You can show me territories controlled by Egypt and Jordan, but not an independent "Palestine". And before those areas were controlled by those two countries, the people living there always considered so-called "Palestine" to be a part of Syria. The Romans started that, calling it "Syria Palestina". As late as the 1940's, the Arab residents of "Palestine" were calling themselves a part of Syria. So...
Soviet cogitations: 78
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Nov 2014, 02:42
Pioneer
Post 16 Nov 2014, 20:31
You will also note that I did acknowledge that there might be about 2% of "Palestinians" who don't want to kill me. I'll up that to four. The two percent that are Christians, and an estimated two percent of the Muslims. Given that the last survey done showed that 93% of all "Palestinians" were noted as having extreme anti-Semitic (meaning anti-Jewish) thoughts and attitudes, I am well advised to be careful
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Soviet cogitations: 1078
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Sep 2013, 03:08
Ideology: Trotskyism
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Post 16 Nov 2014, 20:34
Yaakov001 wrote:
Strangelove, your statements are rather childlike. Just because I hold more conservative, traditional values than you do, the same ones that many Communists held, from Stalin to Mao, doesn't mean I am wrong.

It's not about you being right or wrong, it's about transmitting bigotry. In basically every single post you've made. That's against forum rules.

Also, Stalin and Mao aren't gods. They can be wrong, and held to many values we'd consider backward today. Likewise, there were Hui who fought on the PRC's side and who held high-ranking positions in their government. So, Mao at least probably wouldn't have shared your view of Islam. His irrational hatred was reserved strictly for Confucius.

Quote:
Re: the "Palestinians" the word didn't even exist until the Romans renamed Judea that in order to try to de-Judeaise the territory after the Roman-Jewish wars.

The words Spain, Germany, Italy, and Britain didn't exist until the Roman conquest either. I'm not sure what your point is, unless it's that living somewhere 2000 years ago constitutes a "right" to statehood there. In which case the city of Rome should totally rule the whole Mediterranean and we should give the land I'm typing this from back to the almost-extinct Mohawk tribe.

Not that it's at all feasible to end Israel itself at present, it's too established a country and has too many people living there. But Palestinians living nearby can get justice. And the idea of a "Jewish state," just existing for Jews and nobody else, can end.

Quote:
You will also note that I did acknowledge that there might be about 2% of "Palestinians" who don't want to kill me. I'll up that to four. The two percent that are Christians,

In short, "all but 2% of Muslims, who I didn't even acknowledge exist at first, want to kill me." I'm sorry, but yes, that's flagrant xenophobia at the very least.

Quote:
and an estimated two percent of the Muslims. Given that the last survey done showed that 93% of all "Palestinians" were noted as having extreme anti-Semitic (meaning anti-Jewish) thoughts and attitudes, I am well advised to be careful

Firstly, we know what anti-semitism means. Secondly, how was that particular survey defining anti-semitic beliefs? Who conducted it? Thirdly, you don't think Israel's own actions play a role in fostering resentment? You think those attitudes just exist in a vacuum?
Last edited by MissStrangelove on 16 Nov 2014, 21:14, edited 9 times in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Sep 2011, 13:51
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
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Post 16 Nov 2014, 20:35
Quote:
Re: the "Palestinians" the word didn't even exist until the Romans renamed Judea that in order to try to de-Judeaise the territory after the Roman-Jewish wars. There has never been a state known as "Palestine" at any point in history. You cannot show me on any historical map a country called "Palestine". You can show me territories controlled by Egypt and Jordan, but not an independent "Palestine". And before those areas were controlled by those two countries, the people living there always considered so-called "Palestine" to be a part of Syria. The Romans started that, calling it "Syria Palestina". As late as the 1940's, the Arab residents of "Palestine" were calling themselves a part of Syria. So...


...so thank you for the amusing history lessons I've heard a million times from some of the most simple minded and backwards thinking individuals I've ever met. Good luck in your life. I do honestly feel very sorry for you.
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The great art of life is sensation, to feel that you exist, even in pain.
Soviet cogitations: 78
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Nov 2014, 02:42
Pioneer
Post 16 Nov 2014, 20:44
Actually, the survey was one of 190 countries and territories, and determined that 26 percent of the world's adults still hold deep seated entrenched anti-Semitic thoughts and ideas. It was conducted by the Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. The territory with the highest level was "Palestine" at 93%, followed by Iraq at 92% The country at the lowest end was Laos at 0.2%, which basically amounts to "ah, what's a Jew?" The United States came in at 9%.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Sep 2013, 03:08
Ideology: Trotskyism
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Post 16 Nov 2014, 20:48
Yaakov001 wrote:
Actually, the survey was one of 190 countries and territories, and determined that 26 percent of the world's adults still hold deep seated entrenched anti-Semitic thoughts and ideas. It was conducted by the Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. The territory with the highest level was "Palestine" at 93%, followed by Iraq at 92% The country at the lowest end was Laos at 0.2%, which basically amounts to "ah, what's a Jew?" The United States came in at 9%.

But how were they defining "anti-semitic ideas"? You haven't answered that. I mean, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the rates are higher in the Middle East than in the West, but some people think criticizing Israel's actions is in and of itself anti-semitic. That could skew the scores even higher.

And, again, you think hatred just exists in a vacuum? Not caused by anything whatsoever? I think Palestine and Iraq having the highest score should point to resentment against Israel as a serious cause of it. Which gets back to my point that these kinds of actions just foster hatred all-around.
Soviet cogitations: 78
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Nov 2014, 02:42
Pioneer
Post 16 Nov 2014, 21:05
Actually, no, criticising Israel in and of itself does not constitute anti-Semitism, and I never met a Jew that said it did. But when you start asking Israel to be better than other countries, you have a problem. For example. Israel is the only Occupying Power in the world wherein the Occupied can sue in the Supreme Court of the Occupying, and wherein they often win. Try that in Tibet.

Israel is the only Occupying Power in the world where the Occupied can openly criticise the leader of the Occupier and not be taken out and shot. Again, try that in Tibet. Hell, try it in other ME countries. A "Palestinian" could take a sign outside with a picture of Netanyahu that said "Bibi Sucks Ass". And nothing would happen to him. Try to go outside in Iran with a sign that says "The Ayatollah sucks ass." See how long you live.

In Israel, Arabs vote, they serve on the Supreme Court, they can serve (voluntarily, as they are exempt from the draft) in the military, and they have all the other rights and duties of citizens. Naturally, "Palestinians" are not citizens, of course. 85% of Israeli Jews have made it clear that they would LOVE to see an independent State of Palestine living in peace with Israel. But that's pretty damned hard to accomplish when Hamas still includes in its charter the goal of destroying Israel. When someone basically says, "frag you, I want to kill your country, and everybody living there", what do you expect them to do, let you?

I never said Israel was perfect. Its not. They make mistakes, and when they do, they can and should be called on it, and they often are. But don't expect more out of them than you would of any other country facing an enemy that demands their complete eradication.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 08 Nov 2007, 06:31
Embalmed
Post 16 Nov 2014, 21:43
SciHobo wrote:
Loz, nobody is getting banned. Unpopular viewpoints can be unpopular without being racist. If anything, he's just a nationalist, and we've had a lot of those.


He's a bit more radical than 'just a nationalist', such people are just radicalized centrists. Being here, he obviously isn't one. Instead he's trying to combine marxism with national chauvinism, 'socialism for your own people', extreme social conservatism, and other nakedly reactionary ideas. He's even indistinguishable from a right wing zionist lol

Such people aren't 'just nationalists', they're third position and nazbol scum. They cloak their brown-ness in the (often western, he is american) memory of Stalinism, except this one couldn't even pass for your typical Marxist-Leninist. Far too chauvinist and patriotic.
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Soviet cogitations: 78
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Nov 2014, 02:42
Pioneer
Post 16 Nov 2014, 21:58
Quote:
He's a bit more radical than 'just a nationalist', such people are just radicalized centrists. Being here, he obviously isn't one. Instead he's trying to combine marxism with national chauvinism, 'socialism for your own people', extreme social conservatism, and other nakedly reactionary ideas. He's even indistinguishable from a right wing zionist lol

Such people aren't 'just nationalists', they're third position and nazbol scum. They cloak their brown-ness in the (often western, he is american) memory of Stalinism, except this one couldn't even pass for your typical Marxist-Leninist. Far too chauvinist and patriotic.


You are arguing in a juvenile fashion. Oh, and by the way. Godwin's Law. You lose. And I don't pretend to be be a Stalinist, as he killed far too many people for my taste, although I don't condemn him in the knee-jerk way that so many people do just for the sake thereof. I won't deny being a Bolshevik. Comparing me to a Nazi violates Godwin's Law, as I already pointed out, and makes you look foolish.

In fact, I am Marxist. I am also Leninist, but only to a point. I am not a nationalist per se. I merely believe that Israel has the right to defend itself against people that are trying to destroy it, just as much as the USSR did against Germany, or the the USA did against Germany and Japan. Perhaps you would have had both nations singing Cumbaya with the Nazis, but I wouldn't.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 08 Nov 2007, 06:31
Embalmed
Post 16 Nov 2014, 22:21
I didn't compare you to a nazi. I compared you to nazbols, left nationalists, and other third positionists because you try to combine nationalism and socialism (in the non-Marxist sense). I won't say you're far from a nazi either.

There's is nothing Leninist or Marxist about you, so I have no idea who you're trying to bullshit. The Marxists would destroy your precious traditional values and morals (which Lenin did, I don't know if you realize), brand you as a social-chauvinist, dissolve Israel along with all nation-states (but not without recognizing there is a Palestinian national question) in favor of a commonly-held world, and generally be the 'emotional, social justice types' you identify in a false dichotomy.

The patriotic, socially chauvinist feelings you have lost their place in Marxism with the Second International and the Great War. No communist, certainly not a Leninist, has any national loyalties let alone openly wants a greater version of their nation like you do.

Quote:
Every single "Palestinian" must be deported to the Arab country of their choice with eminent domain paid them for any property lost, and with enough wages to keep them going for 6 months once they get where they are going. After they leave, The Occupied Territories must be annexed into Greater Israel. Those "Palestinians" who refuse to leave peacefully should be escorted out at gunpoint. It should be done gently and humanely, with Israel picking up the tab for the move. The "Palestinians" should be made to suffer as little as possible.


You wouldn't have had any ally in the Bolsheviks once they read that, they'd shoot you as the (particularly rabid) bourgeois nationalist you are. Actually I changed my mind, after reading this you are something of a nazi, since you try to combine socialism with nothing short of palingenetic nationalism. Like it or not you're up their alley.

You even try to appeal to the pluralism of the West as evidence of some kind of cultural superiority to the illiberal Arabs, since they have it 'good' for being oppressed by such a liberalized state. No doubt you think Israel is more 'democratic' than the rest of the Middle East, which is one of the more glaring reasons you are not a Marxist.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Nov 2014, 02:42
Pioneer
Post 17 Nov 2014, 02:34
Conscript wrote:
I didn't compare you to a nazi. I compared you to nazbols, left nationalists, and other third positionists because you try to combine nationalism and socialism (in the non-Marxist sense). I won't say you're far from a nazi either.

There's is nothing Leninist or Marxist about you, so I have no idea who you're trying to bullshit. The Marxists would destroy your precious traditional values and morals (which Lenin did, I don't know if you realize), brand you as a social-chauvinist, dissolve Israel along with all nation-states (but not without recognizing there is a Palestinian national question) in favor of a commonly-held world, and generally be the 'emotional, social justice types' you identify in a false dichotomy.


Of course, the USSR was one of the first nations to recognise the State of Israel AS a nation, so...

Quote:
The patriotic, socially chauvinist feelings you have lost their place in Marxism with the Second International and the Great War. No communist, certainly not a Leninist, has any national loyalties let alone openly wants a greater version of their nation like you do.


Certainly neither Stalin nor Mao would have have agreed with you at all. Neither would Castro, now I come to think of it.

Quote:
You wouldn't have had any ally in the Bolsheviks once they read that, they'd shoot you as the (particularly rabid) bourgeois nationalist you are. Actually I changed my mind, after reading this you are something of a nazi, since you try to combine socialism with nothing short of palingenetic nationalism. Like it or not you're up their alley.


Godwin's Law. You lose. And I strongly suggest you grow up and act like an adult.

Quote:
You even try to appeal to the pluralism of the West as evidence of some kind of cultural superiority to the illiberal Arabs, since they have it 'good' for being oppressed by such a liberalized state. No doubt you think Israel is more 'democratic' than the rest of the Middle East, which is one of the more glaring reasons you are not a Marxist.


And yes, Israel IS in fact a more democratic state than any nation in the Middle East, albeit a rather bourgeois one. But every nation goes through a bourgeois stage before becoming truly socialist. The fact that Israel has strong elements of socialism in it, like free education, free health care, etc, puts them in a better situation than many other nations including the USA.

In Israel, although it is CERTAINLY NOT a perfect country, there is at least an attempt made to give people freedom per se. That attempt is not even made in other ME countries, where you do what you are told, when you are told it, or you get shot. Ask about freedom in an absolute monarchy like Saudi Arabia, or a theocracy like Iran, or a dictatorship like Syria. They will laugh in your face.

I am indeed a Marxist, but, like Mao, I am willing to acknowledge that many nations are not ready to jump straight to Marxism. Israel was founded by a group of people, half of whom were deeply religious Zionists, the other half of whom were extremely non-religious Socialists. They had an interesting time writing up the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. In both they ended up referring to the Rock of Israel, which to the Zionists meant God, and to the Socialists meant God knows what!

As far as Leninism goes, I am uncertain how much of his philosophy I hold to in the first place. There is a thread on that elsewhere. But don't try and tell me that all Communists are anti-patriotic, because in a few words, you are full of it. Stalin would have laughed in your face, and Mao would have thought you were out of your mind. Even Lenin probably would have questioned your sanity. He might have WANTED a non-patriotic world, but he was NOT stupid enough to think he was ever going to achieve that in his lifetime.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Sep 2013, 03:08
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Post 17 Nov 2014, 03:02
Yaakov001 wrote:
Of course, the USSR was one of the first nations to recognise the State of Israel AS a nation, so...

And swiftly rejected that literally months later, with the ethnic cleansing that occurred, where the Soviet leadership deemed that sort of artificial nation-building wholly unnecessary in the modern world. Plus, the Marxist movement there lost any real hope of gaining political power for the foreseeable future with the death of Bel Borochov. For the rest of their existence, the USSR backed the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, which Israel itself crushed.

And you mentioned Hamas. Sure, a horrendous Islamist group. But it only gets support because it's now the go-to option for Palestinians who don't want what they feel would be a puppet state under Fatah. The secular and less-crazy Palestinian radicals, the ones who actually wanted to reach out to the Israeli left and forge a coalition with a serious chance at success, were shattered at their height. Now that they don't pose the biggest security risk to the Israeli regime, the radicals go to the people who now have the guns.

Quote:
Certainly neither Stalin nor Mao would have have agreed with you at all. Neither would Castro, now I come to think of it.

Stalin led a supranational body. While some have laid its gradual Russification at his feet, Soviet patriotism was not the same thing as upholding an ethnic nation-state. Not that he'd explicitly reject that, he supported national independence for oppressed groups. But ultimately, the goal was always ever-increasing supranational cooperation and the forging of a shared identity.

Quote:
Godwin's Law. You lose. And I strongly suggest you grow up and act like an adult.

Godwin's Law, as Godwin himself admitted, is not intended to shut down any and all comparisons to Nazi beliefs. It's for stuff like "you're a vegetarian, Hitler was a vegetarian!" If one's beliefs do resemble national socialism, that can be pointed out. Palingenetic nationalism is a feature of national socialism.

Quote:
But every nation goes through a bourgeois stage before becoming truly socialist.

Most Marxists would disagree with you there. That's stagism, Menshevism. You keep mentioning Mao, for instance. The essence of Maoism is industrial development and steamrolling past the capitalist phase; it's tailor-made for feudal countries and emphatically rejects stagism. Lenin and Trotsky would have agreed and added bringing in capital from a more developed country to aid in that progress, though that's not always necessarily an option (like after the revolution failed in Germany, or today).

Quote:
Ask about freedom in an absolute monarchy like Saudi Arabia, or a theocracy like Iran, or a dictatorship like Syria. They will laugh in your face.

How are you even defining "freedom"? It's being bandied about as an essentially meaningless slogan here, with no thought to the circumstances those countries are faced with. They all have their share of problems, but can't just be written off as "dictatorships" with no thought to why they're that way or what the alternative is. That question needs to especially be asked for Syria, which is facing a brutal civil war with Islamists right now.

Also, curious that you mention Saudi Arabia in the same breath. It's not like Syria and Iran are their allies. Who are? Oh wait. Israel.

Quote:
I am indeed a Marxist, but, like Mao, I am willing to acknowledge that many nations are not ready to jump straight to Marxism. Israel was founded by a group of people, half of whom were deeply religious Zionists, the other half of whom were extremely non-religious Socialists.

Social democrats. The Marxists in Poalei Zion were pushed out by Ben-Gurion, leaving an Israeli partisan spectrum consisting of various shades of social democrats and religious Zionists. From "liberals" for the center of Labor, to "like Britain's Labour in the 40s" for Ben-Gurion's own faction. From "somewhat expansionist and conservative" in the case of the ruling faction in Likud, to "theocratic" for the various small religious parties or "has bizarre associations with Mussolini's Italy" in the case of Jabotinsky.
Last edited by MissStrangelove on 17 Nov 2014, 04:02, edited 6 times in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Nov 2014, 02:42
Pioneer
Post 17 Nov 2014, 03:11
Out of your drivel, I noticed one thing that was so funny I had to laugh. Israel is an ally of Saudi Arabia? That is one of the most abysmally stupid statements I have ever seen made in any forum of which I am a part! I mean, they are slightly less combative toward each other than say, Israel and Iran, for example, but they are hardly allies! What planet are you living on, for God's sake?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Sep 2013, 03:08
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Post 17 Nov 2014, 03:15
Yaakov001 wrote:
Out of your drivel,

Please, explain how any of it's "drivel." Addressing things directly is a whole lot better than snidely brushing them aside.

Quote:
I noticed one thing that was so funny I had to laugh. Israel is an ally of Saudi Arabia? That is one of the most abysmally stupid statements I have ever seen made in any forum of which I am a part! I mean, they are slightly less combative toward each other than say, Israel and Iran, for example, but they are hardly allies! What planet are you living on, for God's sake?

Pick up a newspaper lately? The planet I live on is one where they share the exact same enemies: Iran, Syria, even Sunni Islamists now that ISIS has blown up in Saudi Arabia's face. And they have the exact same allies, the US and Anglosphere mainly. So, their interests in the international arena coalesce. It's one degree of separation.
Soviet cogitations: 78
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Nov 2014, 02:42
Pioneer
Post 17 Nov 2014, 03:25
Just because they have the same enemies doesn't in ANY way make them friends. It simply means they won't kill each other TODAY. As with all Muslims, Radical ones like ISIS and Hamas want to destroy Israel today. The Saudis and other "Moderates" are willing to wait a week. However, please note that Saudi law forbids any Jew from entering the nation for any reason at all whatsoever under any circumstances. The ONLY exception made to that law is American soldiers stationed there to defend the Kingdom, who have been there since 1990 when Saddam's Iraq became a threat. Those troops are still there, but one of the prices of our being there was that Jewish soldiers would be allowed. That exception was made just for us, and ONLY us.

So don't tell me how tolerant they are, etc, or how allied they are with Israel particularly, or Jews generally. You have no clue what you are talking about.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Sep 2013, 03:08
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Post 17 Nov 2014, 03:34
Yaakov001 wrote:
Just because they have the same enemies doesn't in ANY way make them friends.

No, it means they have the same international interests. They want to undermine the same people and network with the same countries. Hence, they're allies. Friendship doesn't really factor into international relations, and the stance on Jews within Saudi Arabia is completely irrelevant to that. If they can somehow take out both Syria and Iran, they might then start to squabble over their kin's mistreatment in Saudi Arabia. And then only if the US allows it, which it wouldn't.

Quote:
So don't tell me how tolerant they are, etc, or how allied they are with Israel particularly, or Jews generally. You have no clue what you are talking about.

Someone's a touch defensive. Who said they're tolerant? The Western alliance with Saudi Arabia is one of the most indefensible things about our foreign policy. They're the most horrific, reactionary state on the planet.
Last edited by MissStrangelove on 17 Nov 2014, 03:40, edited 3 times in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Sep 2011, 13:51
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Post 17 Nov 2014, 03:35
MissStrangelove wrote:
Stalin led a supranational body. While some have laid its gradual Russification at his feet, Soviet patriotism was not the same thing as upholding an ethnic nation-state. Not that he'd explicitly reject that, he supported national independence for oppressed groups. But ultimately, the goal was always ever-increasing supranational cooperation and the forging of a shared identity.


Sublime! Absolutely flawless! This has ultimately become my favorite post ever on this site. MissStrangelove, you should be running for president and I mean that wholeheartedly.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Sep 2013, 03:08
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Post 17 Nov 2014, 03:43
Yeqon wrote:
Sublime! Absolutely flawless! This has ultimately become my favorite post ever on this site. MissStrangelove, you should be running for president and I mean that wholeheartedly.

Thank you. ^_^ ...though I'm 15 years too young for that.
Soviet cogitations: 78
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Nov 2014, 02:42
Pioneer
Post 17 Nov 2014, 03:45
Quote:
They're the most horrific, reactionary state on the planet.


To be honest, although I would actually be inclined to agree with you, I can think of one worse place. The DPRK, commonly called North Korea. I think Saudi Arabia might run a second place, and even a distant second, to the DPRK. THAT country is a SPECIAL shop of horrors, cutely made by the Kims. They are the most repulsive bastards ever to have managed to destroy a country and a population. The only place anywhere in history anywhere in the world that was at anytime equal to or worse than the DPRK would have been Khmer Rouge Cambodia.
Soviet cogitations: 78
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Nov 2014, 02:42
Pioneer
Post 17 Nov 2014, 05:09
Well, Comrades, I have to run for now. It's been a pleasure, actually. Even disagreeing is fun, as it can open my mind to new thought patterns. But now I have to get back to reading some Engels. So, I'll check my e-mail later to see if there are any responses. I hope you don't all hate me. Anyway, I greet you. In spite of the fact that I am somewhat nationalistic, I still uphold the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, though not necessarily as Lenin conceived it. I am more a straight Marxist, as opposed to a Marxist-Leninist.

I am more along the lines of Stalin's "Socialism in One Country" idea, though I do ultimately believe in internationalism. If I thought that the "Palestinians" would be willing to let Israel exist as a Jewish State the same way they want Palestine to be an Islamic State, I would be all for the peace process. But the problem is, I know better.

I've been a Jew for too long to be able to feel as though I can trust the "Palestinians". EVERY time Israel has offered peace, they have been bitten. In 2001, Ehud Barak offered 96% of the West Bank, all of the Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem as an independent State of Palestine. In return he got the Second Intifada. The "Palestinians" never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

Well, be that as it may, and we could argue all this til the cows came home, I am still glad to be part of this forum. Thank you all for welcoming me, even if our debates have been ferocious. I'll see you later.
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