Soviet-Empire.com U.S.S.R. and communism historical discussion.
[ Active ]
[ Login ]
Log-in to remove these advertisements.

Standoffs between Viet Nam and China

POST REPLY
tdn
[+-]
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 28
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 25 Apr 2014, 11:15
Pioneer
Post 10 May 2014, 03:19
The world is too busy with Ukraine and Russia, the missing Malaysian flight, and the sinking South Korean ferry to pay attention to what is going on in the South China Sea.

China has recently deployed a giant oil rig to a position only 120 nautical miles away from Viet Nam's coast and within Viet Nam's exclusive economic zone. This oil rig will carry out oil and gas surveillance in the area with the support of many China's coast guard and even naval ships. Viet Nam has sent its coast guard vessels out to confront these oil rig and ships to defend Viet Nam's exclusive economic zone.

Collisions have happened since China's vessels repeatedly rammed themselves into (smaller) Viet Nam's vessels causing injuries to several Vietnamese cruise members.

We should closely follow these events and figure out how much they will affect Sino-Vietnamese relations as well as those between Russia, Viet Nam, China, and the USA in Southeast Asia.

For now, people in Viet Nam are worried that we're on the brink of escalating (even military) conflicts but are ready to defend the territorial waters.

You can watch the footage of a China's vessel ramming itself into a Vietnamese ship here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TLYDD7YIBY&feature=share.

Here's some brief information about the disputes: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-pacific-13748349.

And here's some interesting information about the role Russia may/should play in these conflicts: http://khong-ai.livejournal.com/.
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 14 May 2014, 13:46
Fighting over oil and gas and who owns what...blimey, they are just like capitalist states! Willing to go to war over oil and gas ownership and you can guess who will do the fighting and dying; the working class. I anyone dumb enough to believe Vietnam and China are socialist regimes?
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 589
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 22 May 2014, 15:45
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/76705ea8-e164 ... z32SJwypDt

Must be lies! Why would one commie country use capitalist legal system to get one over on another commie country? Don’t they know that these resources belong to the working class and not any one country?
tdn
[+-]
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 28
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 25 Apr 2014, 11:15
Pioneer
Post 20 Jun 2014, 18:32
Yami wrote:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/76705ea8-e164-11e3-b59f-00144feabdc0.html#axzz32SJwypDt

Must be lies! Why would one commie country use capitalist legal system to get one over on another commie country? Don’t they know that these resources belong to the working class and not any one country?


These are not lies. The possibility of Viet Nam bringing this case to an international court is very much discussed and widely supported in Viet Nam.

Viet Nam has been restrained itself when it comes to conflicts with China.
You might be right that in an ideal world, we do not have to resort to any capitalist legal systems. However, this world is no ideal. Many people in Viet Nam still believe in the "international proletariat" spirit that both Viet Nam and China are supposed to uphold. But the facts that China uses its military and economic might to claim 75% of the South China Sea, and that China denies the request by the General Secretary of the Communist Party of Viet Nam for an immediate visit/talk amid the current Sino-Vietnamese confrontations at sea tell you a lot about what options Viet Nam really has.

Image



I totally agree with you that these resources should belong to the working class. However, you cannot use the name of the working class to tremble the sovereignty of other nations.
Vietnamese are not so naive to believe that China will submit itself to the judgement of an international court. If Vietnamese have to do this, it is to tell the world that Viet Nam never accepts China's claim in the South China Sea and that Viet Nam does the best it can using peaceful measures to preserve its sovereignty.

Here's some footage reported from the 'battleground' between China's and Viet Nam's coastguards in the Paracel Islands these days.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-19/south-china-sea-diary-samantha-hawley/5533870

And here's the footage of a Chinese ship ramming and sinking a small Vietnamese fishing boat. No member of the working class would do this to anyone.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/05/us-southchinasea-vietnam-idUSKBN0EG0X020140605
Soviet cogitations: 1128
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Aug 2008, 18:12
Party Member
Post 21 Jun 2014, 16:57
Both nations whipping up nationalism in order to distract from problems at home. If people are angry about who controls some pointless rocks in the sea, they are less likely to be angry at endemic corruption in the government.

Quote:
However, you cannot use the name of the working class to tremble the sovereignty of other nations.


Sovereignty is a bourgeois concept; why do you believe in it?

Anyway, I think the time has come for Vietnam to return to its rightful place under Chinese rule
Loz
[+-]
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 21 Jun 2014, 19:02
This is different that let's say the Falklands or the Kurile islands conflict as China is obviously engaged in a massive land-grab that doesn't have anything to do with international maritime laws and customs. Just looking at the map you can see that China hardly has any right to these according to bourgeois law. And these are not pointless islands but islands with huge oil and gas reserves.
Even though it's true that there's the ruling class that's whipping up nationalism in order to distract from problems at home, it's also about the Chinese imperialist expansion in Asia and elsewhere.

Also since when is sovereignty a bourgeois concept ( why not feudal )? Looking at the 20th century all socialist and so called socialist countries stood for national sovereignty and against imperialist aggression and land grabs. For national sovereignty against imperialism is in general a good communist standpoint.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 208
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 May 2009, 19:37
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 22 Jun 2014, 09:38
Of course the Communists are against Imperialism, but that doesn't mean we defend national sovereignty unconditionally. We should consider all factors: history, economy, culture,... and the most importantly, we must determine the class interests behind national sovereignty. For example, when Japan invaded China in WW2, they made the life of everyone worsen, so the Communists made truce with the Nationalists to defeat the common enemy. However, the current territorial dispute between China and Japan only benefits the capitalists of both countries, so the Communists must condemn and fight against the Nationalists of both countries. "No war but class war!"

For Ukraina, joining EU is harmful against the interests of common people (especially the proletariat), therefore, Luhansk and Donetsk have right to declare independence if they don't want to join EU. Not to mention that the Ukraina current government is outright fascist. However, we must be careful with the Russian chauvinism inside movement. The Communists are to be blamed, because although Ukraina is an industrial country with a significant proletariat, they fail to lead the resistance.

Return to Vietnam and China case, I think the situation is pretty similar to Japan and China. Yep, what gRed Britain said has some truth in it. In China, they just finished crackdown on Chóngqìng Model in 2012. In Vietnam, the PM is still in his post, despite his rampant corruption. Both countries are full of corrupted politicians. But the main reason is not distracting people from problems at home.

This is a chess match between China and USA. And what Vietnam government did in previous months are nothing but calling for help from US imperialists. Disgusting.
"Stalin brought us up — on loyalty to the people, He inspired us to labor and to heroism!" Soviet Anthem 1944.
Let's work hard and do valorous deed!
tdn
[+-]
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 28
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 25 Apr 2014, 11:15
Pioneer
Post 22 Jun 2014, 21:01
I copy Loz with the national sovereignty issue.

gRed Britain wrote:
Anyway, I think the time has come for Vietnam to return to its rightful place under Chinese rule


I took this as a joke.

Viet Nam has stood against invasions from China for 2,000 years, then invasions from France, Japan, the US, the Khmer Rouge, and China again for the last 200 years. Do you think the "rightful place under Chinese rule" would ever come?


Engelsist wrote:
Return to Vietnam and China case, I think the situation is pretty similar to Japan and China. Yep, what gRed Britain said has some truth in it. In China, they just finished crackdown on Chóngqìng Model in 2012. In Vietnam, the PM is still in his post, despite his rampant corruption. Both countries are full of corrupted politicians. But the main reason is not distracting people from problems at home.

This is a chess match between China and USA. And what Vietnam government did in previous months are nothing but calling for help from US imperialists. Disgusting.


The communists have many times underestimated nationalistic fervour, and convoluted everything into class struggles in the last century. I thought we already overcame this kind of thinking.

While I agree with all of you about the importance of which class really benefits from these conflicts, we still have to be able to tell clearly who is the aggressor. Viet Nam with its belief in a good relation with a "socialist" neighbour had shut its mouth when it came to conflicts with China. No open protests against China were allowed on the streets in Viet Nam for a very long time. And Viet Nam did not seek help from the USA until very recently, when it was very clear that Russia desperately needs China more than ever.
The Philippines has brought China to an international court. But Viet Nam has not done that yet. It is still waiting for an agreeable negotiation with China which is less and less likely everyday.

Even when Viet Nam had a mutual defence treaty with the USSR, the USSR did not proactively defend Viet Nam when China launched a massive attack against the northern provinces of Viet Nam in 1979. There was also no clear and active help from the Soviet Navy which was based in Central Viet Nam when China attacked the Viet Nam's Spartly Islands in 1988.

The government and many people in Viet Nam fully understand the danger of inviting the US into the region, and the economic consequences (free trade, full-blown free market, etc.) of doing business with the American (which Viet Nam will be succumbed to if they accept huge US supports). But what choice do they have? It is clear that China does not care about the "international proletariat" spirit when they openly dealt with the US, supported Pinochet, and so on and so forth for their own "national interests" since the 1970s.

In the worst scenario, that is Viet Nam totally loses in the conflict with China, the Communist Party of Viet Nam will be accused of serving "international communism" at the expense of national sovereignty. And naturally, the anti-communists will reign.

The rights and interests of the working class will never be achieved if the nation is under foreign rule (or constantly in the threat of foreign invasion). Unless a real communist/working class-based government overthrew the imperialist government in the invading country, the invaded country would have to defend its national sovereignty first and foremost before any kind of class struggle.
Alternative Display:
Mobile view
More Forums: The History Forum. The UK Politics Forum.
© 2000- Soviet-Empire.com. Privacy.
cron