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Group of Russia's officials demand to try Gorbachev

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 10 Apr 2014, 05:02
Quote:
Group of Russia's officials demand to try Gorbachev for dissolution of USSR

© Photo: Voice of Russia

A group of the State Duma officials from different political parties has submitted an interpellation to Russia’s Prosecutor General Yury Chaika, in which it asked him to conduct a check of events that took place during the dissolution of the USSR.

The parliamentarians say that after the check, Prosecutor General will initiate legal proceedings against responsible persons, including the last Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev, Izvestia newspaper reports.

The parliamentarians claimed that during the referendum, the USSR citizens voted for preserving the unity of the country, while the Soviet government committed illegal actions that led to the country’s dissolution. On November 4, 1991, State security policy supervision Administration at the General Prosecutor’s office of the USSR initiated legal proceeding against the USSR President Mikhail Gorbachev. However, the next day, while being under the pressure of the last Soviet leader, the Administration had to abolish the legal proceeding.

Gorbachev is also charged with creation and administration of the State Council of the USSR, which wasn’t stipulated by the USSR Constitution as a governing body. The State Council of the USSR recognized independence of Baltic Soviet republics, though even legitimate authorities couldn’t make such decision.

Evgeny Federov and Anton Romanov from United Russia political party, Ivan Nikitchuk and Oleg Denisenko from the Communist Party of the Russian Federation and Mikhail Degtyaryov from the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia are the initiators of the interpellation.

"We should do this because there has been no legal treatment of the issue so far. We are still facing the results of the events of 1991. Kiev citizens die and will continue to die through the fault of those, who disorganized the country in 1991," Degtyaryov says.

The parliamentarians also told the General Prosecutor’s office that such crimes had no statute of limitation and Gorbachev himself had no immunity to criminal prosecution.

Source

Excellent.

(Though yeah, I know that this is just because of the current events in Ukraine, but if this goes to trial, it would be great.)
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
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Resident Soviet
Post 10 Apr 2014, 10:53
Wow, that is some interesting news. Communists and LDPR are always for this sort of thing, but its interesting to see United Russia people jumping out of their pants the last couple months to start pushing some pieces of progressive legislation. I know that Federov has long spoken about how the US controls the Russian political and economic elite, but for years he has been saying this while voting for the same destructive laws from the ruling party that were designed to weaken Russia. Now, at least in a few areas, it appears things are changing.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 10 Apr 2014, 15:14
LDPR and "communists" together, all said right there. For those not informed the "Liberal Democratic party" is actually a weird fascistoid party led by a notorious fascist antisemite and a lunatic who also happens to be Jewish.
This is just a PR stunt done by "oppositionists" in the service of Kremlin and Russian imperialism.

Quote:
I know that Federov has long spoken about how the US controls the Russian political and economic elite, but for years he has been saying this while voting for the same destructive laws from the ruling party that were designed to weaken Russia. Now, at least in a few areas, it appears things are changing.

Wow, a reactionary party eased down on the full on pedal to the metal reactionary politics. Just you wait till Obama and Cameron start turning even more to the left.

But in this case the implicit call for some sort of a new "Soviet Union" isn't even a progressive thing, at least not more than calling for a new European Union expansion.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
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Resident Soviet
Post 10 Apr 2014, 15:31
What? Loz, stop your opposition for the sake of opposition bs and admit that a trial for Gorbachev would be a good thing in any case, even if the Kremlin isn't in the hands of commies. KPRF can accuse him of bringing down our socialist motherland, the LDPR for destroying the USSR as the successor of the Russian Empire, UR for abandoning the sacred principle of Soviet/Russian territorial integrity. A trial and the popular support that would be sure to go along with it can lead to an official, public reevaluation of history.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 10 Apr 2014, 15:43
Quote:
What? Loz, stop your opposition for the sake of opposition bs and admit that a trial for Gorbachev would be a good thing in any case, even if the Kremlin isn't in the hands of commies.

A good thing for whom? Not for communists. Besides he can't be put to trial ( according to which laws, Soviet ones? ) and everyone knows this. It's not a coincidence that all sorts of degenerates and Russian nationalists love blaming everything on "that bitch who sold himself to Americans" or something. The collapse of the Soviet Union didn't happen because of one person, and the task or communists in Russia first of all is explaining all that to the masses, because without that you'll have the KPRF-ites sucking up the people's energy and all good and progressive forces and turning them all into shit.

Quote:
KPRF can accuse him of bringing down our socialist motherland, the LDPR for destroying the USSR as the successor of the Russian Empire, UR for abandoning the sacred principle of Soviet/Russian territorial integrity.

And the Nazis can accuse him of, i don't know, letting the Jews take over the Russian economy or something. You get the point?
It's absolutely criminal of a communist to think like that. I don't care about bourgeois politics. What you're suggesting here leads and can only lead to defeat and capitulation. Communists have their own class line.

Quote:
A trial and the popular support that would be sure to go along with it can lead to an official, public reevaluation of history.

No, but it will go along nicely with the re surging Russian nationalism and RF's imperial appetites. That some one the "left" ( all those Kurginyans and whatnot ) are willing to go along with that shows just how low they've fallen.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 10 Apr 2014, 18:40
I am myself a criminal communist, because I also believe that a trial would be a good thing if Gorby is accused of having violated the will of the people by destroying the USSR. When bourgeois parties themselves have to recognize the merits of Soviet communism, this is a big advantage. As a French communist, I know that, because I experience the opposite situation.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 10 Apr 2014, 21:27
Loz wrote:
A good thing for whom? Not for communists.


Well, why not? I'll ignore the rest of your rabid shrieking up to here:

Quote:
No, but it will go along nicely with the re surging Russian nationalism and RF's imperial appetites.


Lolz, you do know that Gorbachev supported Crimea joining Russia, right?
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
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Philosophized
Post 10 Apr 2014, 21:52
About 50% of the supportive comments I've seen for this measure include blatant anti-Semitism ("Gorbachev, the tool of the Western Zionists, etc.). In any case, Gorbachev and Yeltsin should have hanged together 22 years ago. To demand his trial now only serves the interests of the ultra-nationalists. Of course, Putin will pay lip service to them, as he always does, before ultimately dismissing the idea once it has exhausted its currency.

Honestly, the best thing Gorbachev can do for himself is die already. His legacy of treason, shame, and infamy is assured in perpetuity.
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 10 Apr 2014, 22:14
Quote:
Lolz, you do know that Gorbachev supported Crimea joining Russia, right?

Yes, and that doesn't change anything about the overall picture here.
He's still blamed for bringing the Soviet Union ( read: great Russia ) down and so on.

It says it all nicely in the article, with "national liberation" meaning annexations by the RF:
Quote:
In comments with the popular mass circulation daily Izvestia, one of the sponsors of the initiative, Evgeny Fyodorov, claimed that the thorough investigation into the 1991 events would allow for a “correct historical and political picture” and veritable conclusions that, in the politicians’ view, would give an impetus for the “national liberation movements” in former Soviet republics.


Also, what Order said.
Last edited by Loz on 10 Apr 2014, 22:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Philosophized
Post 10 Apr 2014, 22:16
Which he was a critical part of. Gorbachev positioned liberals all over soviet leadership so that his western friends would hail him as some champion of capitalism and invite him to all the big bourgeoisie parties.

@order: It will serve us too. As Soviet78 just said:
Quote:
trial and the popular support that would be sure to go along with it can lead to an official, public reevaluation of history.

This day is coming, and seeing this (considering the relative weakness of communism in Russia) at ultra-nationalist days means it's coming faster than many of us ever believed. Although I agree I'd have loved to hang Yeltsin as well. Dieing in his own drunken piss was too good for him..
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
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Post 10 Apr 2014, 22:31
Well, thanks for not answering my first question at all and going on an irrelevant tangent on the other. Overall, as good a post as ever, Loz.
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
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Philosophized
Post 10 Apr 2014, 22:59
Would it be a good thing for Communists? Only insofar as simple revenge is concerned. I'd imagine 90% of all the officials who held offices in the USSR have retired or been driven into the public sector in whatever capacity. I'm sure there's plenty of people among them who would love nothing more than to see the person who embodies the fall of the USSR (and the dead end to their careers) face the music in court.

But, really, what's the worst that can happen to him? Will they execute him? Jail him? Exile him to Siberia? Ransom him off to the West?

If they execute him, it sets a dangerous precedent, one that Khrushchev went to his grave congratulating himself over having put a stop to. If they jail him, how long will he last? He's already in his 80's. Jailing or sending him to Siberia would just make him a convenient Koch Brothers propaganda puppet (a status he hasn't enjoyed in years). Ransoming him to the West might bring in a few bucks in the short term, but would be embarrassing in the long run. Really, it's probably best to limit his media access and let the Reaper come in his own good time.
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 10 Apr 2014, 23:12
It's a moral judgment for the sake of a moral judgment, as one of the deputies said. Communists tried to do the same with Yeltsin for a while but obviously lacked the administrative resource.

Also, what kind of bizarre world do you live in where Koch brothers give half a shit about what is going on in Russia, which apparently still has the death penalty and exile? Or is this a world where the death penalty wasn't reinstated after Khrushchev was removed from power/ Is this real and not a fever dream? Am I talking to a real human? Seriously, what the hell, man...

Seriously, if any kind of action is taken, it should be like what Lukashenko did with Shushkevich - stripping him of all benefits and setting his pension to $1/month. Civil assets forfeiture could be done, but as nice as that would be, it would probably be going too far.
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
Ideology: None
Philosophized
Post 10 Apr 2014, 23:22
Kirov wrote:
It's a moral judgment for the sake of a moral judgment, as one of the deputies said. Communists tried to do the same with Yeltsin for a while but obviously lacked the administrative resource.

It would be a retributive political action, not some religious-derived hogwash.
Quote:
Also, what kind of bizarre world do you live in where Koch brothers give half a shit about what is going on in Russia, which apparently still has the death penalty and exile? Or is this a world where the death penalty wasn't reinstated after Khrushchev was removed from power

I pointed out that the Koch brothers and their like would make an excellent propaganda point of the dire fate of Gorbachev. Do you see any reason why they couldn't, or wouldn't?
Quote:
Is this real and not a fever dream? Am I talking to a real human? Seriously, what the hell, man...

Watch it, bub. These are the SRS BSNS forums.

Quote:
Seriously, if any kind of action is taken, it should be like what Lukashenko did with Shushkevich - stripping him of all benefits and setting his pension to $1/month. Civil assets forfeiture could be done, but as nice as that would be, it would probably be going too far.

That sounds perfectly reasonable and doable to me. So why didn't you suggest this three posts ago?
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 10 Apr 2014, 23:39
Yeah, Gorbachev is not a factor in politics except for when he enters an election and gets 0.01%, so having such a show trial would be beneficial for the establishment and for people who still mourn the collapse of the USSR. Russia is not a socialist country, so it can have no real impact on that even if he was punished somehow, he's not Baron Ungern-Stromberg. And yeah, I can think of 3: American conservatives are the last people to give a shit because to them he is the guy who "tore down this wall" ; it would be a waste of time and money that could be talking about how fracking is great and global warming is a hoax or whatever it is they do nowadays; it would serve no point at all as Russia is a capitalist country and you can't connect it to anything they care about like "look, this is why universal healthcare is bad!" And yeah, I didn't suggest any kind of punishments for Gorby because it's not up to me as I have around zero impact on the situation, which is why my ideas of what punishments he must endure should not be used as an argument for or against trying him in court.

Also,

Quote:
Watch it, bub. These are the SRS BSNS forums.


Are you threatening to post annoying
smilies every time I write something that makes your rectum clench?
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
Soviet cogitations: 12389
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
Ideology: None
Philosophized
Post 11 Apr 2014, 01:08
Kirov wrote:
Are you threatening to post annoying
smilies every time I write something that makes your rectum clench? :?:

If I do, will it cue a replay of your famous "just back down" aggro speech?
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Nov 2012, 01:18
Komsomol
Post 11 Apr 2014, 01:10
Narrowing down serveral massive historical processes stretching over decades to one man (who didn't even dissolve the USSR and was pretty much complicit in the coup that tried to preserve it) is primitivist, anti-historical and is called scapegoating; letting Putin's office for wacky ideas (LDPR) find yet another scapegoat to win points for the regime is reactionary; hating on Gorby's decades-old political corpse is a necrophiliac ritual that serves as a safety valve for certain people's political inadequacy, saving them from actual necrophiliac phsychosis after another fit of nostalgic impotency.

What would be a useful and interesting trial is an investigation into Yeltsin's 1993 coup, which actually was a crime, both morally and legally, but that will never happen because that's where the roots of putinism are.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 11 Apr 2014, 01:32
Well, the thing they want to try him for is very clear - forming the Gossovet and taking part in its actions, and I think that's entirely reasonable if they find a legal basis for it - so far it has been only Gorby's legal team to predictably say that there isn't. To be honest, I think it would be a sort of cleansing ritual for people who are still nostalgic, to finally come to terms with the USSR's collapse, as the symbol of its collapse has been at least morally eliminated. I don't think it would affect Putin's image much, except in the eyes of Western liberals who would write more articles about how he is a fascist revanchist dictator or whatever.

And yeah, I doubt that an investigation of the 1993 events would happen, - first because all participants on both sides were amnestied for any actions they took part in during the coup, which prevented an investigation from happening in the first place, although I guess the amnesty itself was illegal, - and second, because it would mean the end of the existing Russian state, as the existing constitution is illegitimate to begin with due to election fraud when it was being voted on, and if that doesn't revoke it, Yeltsin's coup and suspension of the 1978 constitution which was obviously illegal. There is also the largely bullshit threat of civil war if that happens, heard mostly from liberals, many of whom were on Yeltsin's side during the events, but I don't think it would really change much except for creating a basis for constitutional reform.
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Dec 2011, 00:54
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 11 Apr 2014, 01:40
A Trial (Unlikely as it is to happen) Has value in countering the Bullshit Propoganda of Dissolution being the Will of the People.

The West writes the whole affair off as a mix between the Berlin Wall in Russia and a Bankruptcy Firesale.

Wholly Innacurate and insulting yet almost completely unchallenged as a Pseudo Historical Summation of events.

Yes there are Faschist Scum and ither assorted opportunists that will milk this for all it's worth but the opportunity to rub the new generations faces in the truth of the Horrific Butchering that occured contrary to the Democratic process which is oh so vaunted in the West (Yeah right) is vital if Socialism/Communism is to be strengthened in the East once more.
"A shiny bauble from Capitalism is worthless when the cost is Children & the Elderly going hungry, The Infirm & Sick dying because of Greed & Education reduced to a token few to placate the masses with Illusions of freedom."
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 11 Apr 2014, 13:17
Kirov mentioned the key word 'symbol' several times; this is exactly what a trial of Gorbachev would be, and it would have great political and historical significance. Even if Gorbachev were to be imprisoned one day and died the next, the fact that he was publicly tried, the wave of public approval for justice being served, the historical record in the biography of Gorbachev, all of this would all be of great importance symbolically. Writing it off because he's old and his political capital is long-spent isn't relevant here. A sense of justice finally being served, at least in some part, is.

As a side note, perhaps it will serve as the impetus for a reevaluation of the man from the general public in the West, and they'll stop asking whether and how much I appreciate what Gorbachev did for my freedoms and well-being.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
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