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Ukraine opposition urges fresh polls amid pro-EU rallies

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Nov 2012, 01:18
Komsomol
Post 01 Dec 2013, 16:15
Lol, the lard munchers are an embarrassment as usual.

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Quote:
Opposition parties in Ukraine have called for early elections amid ongoing protests at the government's refusal to sign an EU association agreement.

A "national resistance" HQ is to be set up, they said, followed by a nationwide strike. Thousands have regrouped in Kiev after being violently dispersed.

President Viktor Yanukovych said he was "deeply outraged" by the violence.

A big rally is expected on Sunday. Jailed ex-PM Yulia Tymoshenko has urged people to overthrow the government.

Ukraine refused to sign the EU deal after apparent pressure from Russia.

At the end of a summit in the Lithuanian capital on Friday, EU leaders warned they would not tolerate Russian interference in the bloc's relations with former Soviet republics.

The summit reached provisional accords with Georgia and Moldova.
'Like garbage'

Several Western countries condemned Saturday morning's intervention to disperse protesters gathered in Independence Square, which saw a number of people hurt.

Police said they had decided to clear Independence Square after "a number of incidents", Interfax Ukraine news agency reported. It was not clear what incidents they were referring to.

"It was horrible. We were holding a peaceful demonstration and they attacked us," said protester Lada Tromada. "They threw us away like garbage."

One activist, opposition MP Andriy Shevchenko, said at least 33 people were taken into police custody.

US state department spokeswoman Jen Psaki condemned "the violence by government authorities against peaceful demonstrators".

In a statement, she said: "We urge Ukraine's leaders to respect their people's right to freedom of expression and assembly. These are fundamental to a healthy democracy and the respect for universal values on which the United States's partnership with Ukraine depends."

For his part, President Yanukovych said in a statement: "I am deeply outraged by events that took place on Independence Square overnight. I condemn the actions which led to a confrontation and people suffering."

He vowed that those responsible for the use of force would be punished, but did not apportion blame.

Members of Ukraine's political opposition met for emergency talks after the dispersal.

"We have made a joint decision to form a national resistance taskforce and have begun preparing for an all-Ukrainian national strike," former Economy Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk told reporters.

"Our demands are the resignation of [Interior Minister Vitali] Zakharchenko, an investigation of his actions and his trial, the resignation of the government and the president and early presidential and parliamentary polls.

"We... are calling on all civic activists, civil society and all those who care about Ukraine's future to fight the Viktor Yanukovych regime together."

A big rally has been announced for Sunday.

Ms Tymoshenko has urged protesters not to give in "until the regime is overthrown by peaceful means".

In a message read by her daughter, Ms Tymoshenko urged Ukrainians: "Fly, drive, walk to Kiev from all parts of Ukraine, but gather everyone on 1 December."
'Foreign pressure'

Last week, President Yanukovych said he was suspending preparations for signing an EU association agreement that would have opened borders to goods and set the stage for an easing of travel restrictions.

He said pressure from Russia had led him to make his decision. Mr Yanukovych argued that Ukraine could not afford to sacrifice trade with Russia, which opposed the deal.

EU Council President Herman Van Rompuy said the parties had been "really close" to signing the association agreement in Vilnius, but added: "We need to overcome pressure from abroad."

German Chancellor Angela Merkel said the door would always remain open for Ukraine.

Independence Square was the scene of the Orange Revolution in 2004, which saw Mr Yanukovych ousted and a Western-leaning government brought to power.

Mr Yanukovych was elected president five years later, narrowly defeating then-Prime Minister Tymoshenko, a leading figure of the Orange Revolution.

In 2011 she was sentenced to seven years in jail for abuse of office - a case widely criticised in the West as political revenge.

Ms Tymoshenko has been on hunger strike since Monday over the failure to sign the EU agreement.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25166684
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 01 Dec 2013, 18:08
I pray to Gott that Ukraine will never sign the EU association agreement. Ukraine is the birthplace of East Slavic civilization, and has been instrumental in the historical development of the Russian Empire, and perhaps even more so in the Soviet period. I've heard a lot from some Westerners with but a passing interest in and knowledge of Ukraine, and often times find that the main argument they can muster is that the association agreement would somehow help the poor Ukrainian people economically. Nothing can be further from the truth. However crooked and corrupted the Russian political and economic leadership may be, there is no question that the Ukraine would be better off joining the customs union than associating with the EU. First off, the customs union is based on the principle of equal rights for each member state, including things like special clauses and dispute arbitration. The EU agreement is a series of mandates from the EU without any say whatsoever from the Ukrainian side. Ukrainian exports are welcome and desirable in Russia and the CU. Their industrial and agricultural base is too dilapidated to compete effectively in Europe, and they don't have the money to modernize it, which in essence means that the little of what's left of local production will decline even further if they sign the AA. Finally, joining the customs union would mean that Ukrainian babushkas can pay less for heating and energy supplies than if they would if Ukraine signed the EU agreement. All the screaming about a 'bully Russia', referring to the Russian leadership's statements that they would have to take protectionist measures to respond to Ukraine's free trade agreement with the EU, make absolutely no sense from an economic point of view.

If pro-EU agreement people really cared about the 'poor Ukrainians', they would see that from an economic point of view, Ukraine really would be better off with Russia and the customs union. Unfortunately, the debate absolutely ignores Western imperialist geopolitical and economic ambitions, while the majority of people have a very poor conception of Ukraine's problems and what's needed to solve them. Those hipsters and nationalists at Maidan want cheaper bananas and iphones and separation from the Moskali don't seem to realize or care that the EU's goal here is principally the same as that of the Third Reich, even if the methods have been modernized (i.e. markets, resources, and a cheap labour force to serve big European banks).
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Oct 2004, 15:15
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Politburo
Post 01 Dec 2013, 21:12
Quote:
One activist, opposition MP Andriy Shevchenko, said at least 33 people were taken into police custody.


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?

(The funny thing is that the footballer was actually a candidate for another party!)

It's one of life's funny little occurrences that, while in Western Europe some people are eager to get out of the EU, in Ukraine, some are apparently prepared to face off with riot police to get in. I don't know enough about the details of the agreements with either the EU or the CIS, but I guess it's just another excuse for the usual East-West divide in Ukraine. So now we're getting something like the Orange Revolution repeated as farce.

Funny about the whole police brutality angle. If anyone in this pacifist country tried to storm or occupy a ministerial building, they'd get the shit kicked out of them as well. I noticed that a UK minister made a comment as well. This coming from the country where protests don't get dispersed but 'kettled'. A country where, four years ago, riot police in balaclavas killed a guy who wasn't even a protester, but just a random drunk walking along with his hands in his pockets. Who are they to lecture another European country on police brutality against protesters?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 03 Dec 2013, 20:25
Never before have so many people fought so eagerly to repeat the experience of Greece in the past few years.
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 03 Dec 2013, 22:52
Capitalism is really gearing up these days. Conflict is getting close to exponential growth and nobody is trying to stop it.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Nov 2012, 01:18
Komsomol
Post 04 Dec 2013, 02:29
The Galician crypto-nazis must be the most bizzare people in the world (in the political sense).

Yanukovich and his Donetsk oligarchic clan are terrible people, but even they felt that the nasty neo-colonial agreement being shamelessly proposed by the EU is disasterous. The so called "free trade" agreement would entail a lifting of import duties on both sides; however, the European side would reserve import quotas that would cover 10-30% of Ukrainian exports to the EU, while the rest would be taxed as before. As for Ukraine, it would be able to apply quotas only to pork, poultry and sugar... speaks for itself really.

Other ridiculous points included directives on railway privatisation (meaning immediate ticket price hikes) and a change from the 1520-мм rail gauge to the European 1435-мм gauge... which would cost untold billions at a time when the country is cash-strapped.

It doesn't stop there... standards ranging from the positioning of light bulbs and sockets to traffic signs and road crossings to the width of spirals on screws and bolts. The costs of this are beyond crazy and the competitiveness of firms to which these standards apply (which is all of them) would be pretty much zero. Other gems include the incompatibility of Ukrainian bricks with "eco-standards", which means importing bricks that cost 5 times more. This is just a nuclear holocaust to any productive activity in the Ukraine.

On the political side, the agreement dictates Ukraine to comply with all directives from the EU side and to totally synchronise its judicial system with the EU system... which would involve violating the working constitution.

So after reading over summaries of the agreement I am f**king speechless at everything - the bold and shameless attempted economic terrorism from the EU side, Yanukovich's inabilty to articulate the issue to the public, and the Galician nazis' sheer idiocy. There should be an open-ended general strike by the Eastern workers or something, with the demand of stripping all west-Ukrainian citizens of their citizenship and of at least a 10-year diplomatic moratorium on any interaction with the EU. If the govt doesn't comply, it must be overthrown and replaced with an interrim strike committee. Anything short of that leaves everyone vulnerable to further terrorism from the EU and the Galician nazis.
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Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 04 Dec 2013, 13:29
Ukraine is so miserable that a lot of people just want to escape to Europe and work there as toilet cleaners and whores, and they'd still live better than doctors or professors in Lvov or Kiev or Dnepropetrovsk.
Galicians could live just from smuggling truckloads of cheap cigarettes, weapons, whores, drugs and slaves to Poland and further on if they got in the EU.
And i seriously doubt that anyone in Europe actually wants Ukraine to join. The main countries are already angry because of Romania and Bulgaria ( that are still a hundred times better and more civilized than UKR ), Croatia was let in because it had been in negotiations for 10 years, and there's the crisis-ridden Southern Europe in general to take care of. Merkel said that Europe won't enlarge more in near future.
The conditions that the EU proposed to Ukraine are worse than anything any other E. Eur. country was forced to agree with in order to enter the Union.

Also there are similar protests going on in Moldova too which is truly Africa in Europe. Its future is uncertain as it could reunite with Romania in the future, except for the part on the left bank od Dniester. Though i think that would be better for them than staying in the limbo they're in now.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Apr 2007, 18:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 04 Dec 2013, 13:59
Great analysis sans-culotte. I'm especially annoyed at the whole "eco" shit that they force down everybody's throat. Typical bourgeois sentimentalism, animals and "nature" have to be protected, but workers can be treated like shit.

Also, Ukraine is worse than Romania? Holy shit, and here I thought Romania was the shithole of Europe...
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 04 Dec 2013, 14:46
Loz, can you please try to be more sensitive toward Ukrainians in your remarks? The Ukrainian sex trade is one of the great national tragedies for East Slavic civilization, and comprises brainwashed girls growing up in the post-Soviet moral nightmare, as well as actual sex slaves whose documents are taken from them once they cross the border. Sometimes the thought of so many millions of destroyed lives among East European girls just makes me want to do extremely horrible things to the reformers that made it all possible. Just this one facet of reformers' actions is enough to try them in a new Nuremberg.

Also, Romania and Bulgaria are not 'more civilized' than Ukraine; they are smaller, warmer countries; perhaps their economic reforms have been somewhat less destructive than what's happened in Ukraine. We have to remember that in the late Soviet period Soviet Ukraine by itself was once the third economy in Europe after the RSFSR and the FRG. It's not a matter of civilization, but of disastrous events and policy decisions. The reason the EU cannot swallow up Ukraine is because it is too large a mess, not because it's uncivilized.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 04 Dec 2013, 15:09
Quote:
Loz, can you please try to be more sensitive toward Ukrainians in your remarks? The Ukrainian sex trade is one of the great national tragedies for East Slavic civilization, and comprises brainwashed girls growing up in the post-Soviet moral nightmare, as well as actual sex slaves whose documents are taken from them once they cross the border. Sometimes the thought of so many millions of destroyed lives among East European girls just makes me want to do extremely horrible things to the reformers that made it all possible. Just this one facet of reformers' actions is enough to try them in a new Nuremberg.

Why would anyone be sensitive towards that? Sure it's tragic and everything but that's how it is. It's not my fault that ex-Soviet countries turned into shitholes. We in the ex-Yugoslavia had the worst war and genocide in Europe after WW2 and it's only these Yugo peoples to blame for it. If anyone would say that these Balkan savages ruined their own countries he'd be right.
Ukraine didn't have a war but it somehow managed to turn out even worse.

Quote:
Also, Romania and Bulgaria are not 'more civilized' than Ukraine; they are smaller, warmer countries; perhaps their economic reforms have been somewhat less destructive than what's happened in Ukraine.

But they are, by pretty much all criteria that we measure who's civilized and who's not. Bulgaria and Romania are the least developed countries in the EU but Ukraine would fit better in Africa, and it'd still be behind some of the countries there.

Quote:
It's not a matter of civilization, but of disastrous events and policy decisions. The reason the EU cannot swallow up Ukraine is because it is too large a mess, not because it's uncivilized.

Sure, and because it's a savage, lawless shithole. It's a shithole even by Balkan standards.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 Jun 2006, 02:14
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Politburo
Post 04 Dec 2013, 21:11
A nice article regarding why Ukraine shouldn't join the EU in... Forbes!
Quote:
The European Union Has Serious Problems And It's Not 'Pro Kremlin' To Point Them Out

Sean Guillory and I don’t agree on everything (he’s much more economically left-wing than I am, and rather more pessimistic about where Russia is heading) but he’s extremely knowledgeable, an excellent writer, and someone and whose opinions deserve to be taken seriously. He recently wrote a truly outstanding piece that talked about how an “imaginary Europe” has captured Ukrainians’ collective imaginations. The article is worth reading in full, but here’s a particularly choice excerpt:

Europe is at a nadir. Yet Ukrainians are nevertheless clamoring to join it. Granted, I understand why so many Ukrainians place their hopes on “Europe” as a symbol for the future. In the cosmology of the West/East divide, Europe has wondrous powers over the imagination. My only fear is that by imbuing it with such symbolic meaning, Ukrainians will turn Europe into a false promise.

This angered a lot of people who are prone to describing Europe as a state of mind rather than a physical place inhabited by actual flesh-and-blood human beings. Given the parlous economic condition of the EU in late 2013, though, Sean is clearly accurate that Ukrainians run the risk of being sorely disappointed with their “civilizational choice.” I myself have written about how the EU’s “convergence machine” is broken, and you don’t need to be a Nobel-prize-winning economist to see that the EU’s economy has been performing abysmally since the end of the financial crisis. Integration with such an entity is unlikely to bring a rapid improvement in Ukraine’s economic performance.

But to some people pointing out the obvious and incontestable fact that Europe has a number of serious problems is evidence of some dark intent or perhaps even pro-Kremlin sympathies. As always, I prefer to let a few charts do most of the talking:

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You often hear Russia described as “stagnant,” and it is true that it’s economy has been decelerating sharply over the course of 2013. However, the European Union isn’t just having a bad year, it has been economically stagnant for the better part of a decade. Per capita incomes in the EU are essentially unchanged since 2006. And unemployment in the EU has been on a remorseless rise since 2008, and there is no end in site. Economic stagnation and mass unemployment are, quite simply, two of the EU’s distinguishing features in 2013.

Now perhaps Ukrainians are undaunted by the EU’s massive economic failure, perhaps they place a much higher value on civil rights, democracy, and the rule of law. That is a respectable position, and the choice of integration is entirely theirs to make. If Ukrainians genuinely want integration with the EU (and the hundreds of thousands of people out in the streets would suggest this is the case) then they should have integration with the EU.

But Ukrainians should have no illusions whatsoever about what they are integrating with. This is not the Europe of the 1990′s or early 2000′s when 3% annual growth was a given and economic policy makers were more worried about labor shortages then they were mass unemployment. Europe in 2013 is a much more austere and nastier place, and large swaths of the EU remain locked in what can only be described as depression-like conditions. If Ukraine integrates with the EU it should expect no short-term economic jolt because Europe’s economy is performing terribly.

It is important to state this plainly and openly not because it aids the Kremlin, but because it is true. It is also incredibly important to avoid inflating popular expectations. During the 1990′s Russians were told that “democracy” would not only make them more free, but it would also make them rich. That didn’t happen, and Russians gradually began to associate the lofty rhetoric of “democratic politics” with the ugly and dangerous reality of economic collapse. There is a very real risk that the same thing could happen in Ukraine, and that “integration” and “Europe” will become tarred with the years of economic pain that, at this point, are basically inevitable.

The EU has many laudable qualities, and European norms in many senses represent a real improvement over current Ukrainian practice. A Ukraine with more “European” legal and regulatory systems would undoubtedly be a better place to live. But given current economic realities, a Ukraine that moves towards Europe is unlikely to be a much more prosperous one.


"Where Argentina goes, Latin America will go".
Leonid Brezhnev

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Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 04 Dec 2013, 23:16
They could have taken Angola instead of R. F. for these graphs and the difference would have been even more striking.
Ukraine's GDP per capita is about 5-6 times lower than that of Russia, since a lot of Russian domestic product comes from oil and gas which Ukraine doesn't have. And it's worth mentioning that Russia is still behind even Italy when it comes to GDP.
Otherwise what sans-culotte already said is more relevant than the rest of that article.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Nov 2012, 01:18
Komsomol
Post 05 Dec 2013, 01:59
It's amazing how no one is paying attention to the actual agreement and talking s**t about some pointless abstract things.

Btw, Russia in the present state is not a place to associate with either, not until the devils in the Kremlin are exorcised.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 05 Dec 2013, 09:27
Sans culotte wrote:
It's amazing how no one is paying attention to the actual agreement and talking s**t about some pointless abstract things.


Absolutely. The funny thing to me is that many EU sympathizers don't even want to talk about the political/civilizational 'East/West' choice, and chalk everything down to 'the poor Ukrainian people', and how the agreement would somehow actually help them.

Granted, the Customs Union isn't ideal. Ukraine and Russia are both ruled by oligarchs ultimately dependent on the Western financial and economic systems anyway, and you can bet that in the event of Ukraine joining the CU Russian companies would start buying up Ukrainian companies even faster than they already have. Still, the Customs Union guarantees equal trade and arbitration rights, responsibilities and privileges; the AA does not. Ukrainian products would improve their position on the CU markets; they would not in the EU, being subject to strict regulations they could not pass. Under the CU agreement Ukraine would gain access to cheaper energy resources; in the EU they would not. It's a matter of leadership; look at how well Belarus (1/5 of Ukraine's population) has been doing in the Customs Union; they have taken advantage of all its perks, while maintaining a measure of economic independence via the guarantees provided in the agreement. There have been a lot of hurt feelings among Russians toward Ukraine ever since 2004; many have come to see Ukrainian nationalists as sadomasochists, preferring to be beaten and broken by Western (i.e. traditionally Polish) masters than to participate on equal terms with the Moskali in an Eastern imperial project.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Aug 2004, 20:49
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Embalmed
Post 05 Dec 2013, 09:59
Doesn't Russia sell its gas and oil to Ukraine at a lower-than-market price as a result of goodwill and old ties or something? I remember it being a cause of the 2004-2006 Ukrainian gas crisis when Russia threatened to start selling it to them at something closer to the market price or actually at the market price. I guess this would happen and cut off a lot of Europe if Ukraine were to do something as stupid as cut off all ties to Russia. I guess that ties into what you're saying there, Soviet78.
And yeah, there is practically no way that even Romania and Bulgaria are going to be able to match all of the strict EU safety and standards guidelines, Poland still hasn't caught up with plenty of its domestic products - food and beer are practically their only exports because of these EU standards.
Nobody I have spoken to, except 1 Ukrainian I met in Germany, actually wants to join the EU now. It's a simple matter of fact that 3 countries are doing pretty well (in a bourgeois sense) from the EU - the UK capitalises on the finance, France apparently does quite well, and Germany is the manufacturing arm. There would just be yet another market and cheap labour to exploit; this whole thing about civilisation and equality is total rubbish, Poland is a reactionary Frag.
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"Phil Spector is haunting Europe" -Dr. Karl H. Marx
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Nov 2003, 13:17
Ideology: Other
Forum Commissar
Post 06 Dec 2013, 14:22
I have heard from Ukrainian nationalists that they do not want to join with Russia. At the same time they did not seem very pro-EU. Perhaps they would prefer the EU to Russia if they consider it a lesser evil? The Russian economy is growing. If Ukraine stays close to Russia it can also get a strong economy. I do not see why some people think that the only path to wealth and high living standards is through the European Union. I do not like the EU and if Ukraine joins it means this organisation is strengthened. Hopefully Ukraine will not join.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Nov 2012, 01:18
Komsomol
Post 07 Dec 2013, 02:27
Unofficial, but apparently Yanuk and Putin signed something in Sochi today and the Ukraine shall be joining the customs union.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Dec 2013, 14:24
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 07 Dec 2013, 17:29
Political Interest wrote:
I have heard from Ukrainian nationalists that they do not want to join with Russia. At the same time they did not seem very pro-EU. Perhaps they would prefer the EU to Russia if they consider it a lesser evil? The Russian economy is growing. If Ukraine stays close to Russia it can also get a strong economy. I do not see why some people think that the only path to wealth and high living standards is through the European Union. I do not like the EU and if Ukraine joins it means this organisation is strengthened. Hopefully Ukraine will not join.


So you think Ukraine should stay out of the EU to strengthen the Ukranian economy? Wow, I never thought I'd read this on a communist forum!
Whether the Ukraine joins the EU or not has nothing to do with socialism.
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 07 Dec 2013, 18:45
Why doesn't that country just split up already?
Luckily for Europe Banderistan won't be able to enter the EU for at least the next 50 years no matter how hard they tried.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 07 Dec 2013, 20:37
Thing is, as far as I've come to understand it, the only really anti-Russian provinces in Ukraine are the ones that used to belong to the Austro-Hungarian Empire (i.e. Ukrainian Galicia). The rest of the Western part of the country has been subject to a massive propaganda war over the last 25 years, with a great deal of funding for things like textbooks, tv stations, etc. coming from Ukrainian emigre communities in North America, plus funds from Western countries set on tearing the country away from Russia. If Ukraine were to split, cutting off this Galician Banderastan (nice name, Loz
) would probably be enough, and the rest of Ukraine would do just fine living alongside and closely cooperating with Russia over the long term.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
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