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Attackers storm Russian school!

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Soviet cogitations: 2510
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Feb 2004, 20:50
Party Bureaucrat
Post 09 Sep 2004, 14:11
Question:

Were any members of russian special forces killed during the intervention? I saw that there were Spetsnaz and Omon units. I know the a soldiers was wounded but I did not get any information that one of them was killed...
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Ya Basta!
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Soviet cogitations: 1598
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 23 Feb 2004, 22:46
Party Member
Post 09 Sep 2004, 19:47
Quote:
First off, Chechens fought against Bolshevik government for two years even after they were given equal rights with other nationalities. Second, they fought against Red Army in the Great Fatherland War.


So the White Armies and the Nazi were able to mobilize a great deal of the populations of certain national minorities to fight against the socialist state *shrugs*... that still doesn't justify taking away the right to autonomy, or massacring them, etc. The Confederate reactionaries were able to mobilize the Cherokee, Creek, and Chickasaw Indians to fight for them in the American Civil War, but that didn't justify the U.S. government's continued oppression and exploitation of their people. The same goes with the Chechen national minority, ESPECIALLY when it is the Russian CAPITALIST state (and its army) that is oppressing them.

Quote:
And third, the Russian Army stopped "bombings" in Chechnya about two years ago.


I could have sworn that the Russian Army was still attacking Chechnya, but, whatever... the point is that the Russian state is still oppressing the Chechen people.

Quote:
Chechens chose their flag, approved their constitution and status within Russian Federation by the means of referendum. And still their bandits continue to kill peaceful people...


I cannot see there being any honest autonomy for any of Russia's oppressed nationalities within the current capitalist state. What Russians and Chechens need is socialism, and once they have that the Chechen people will have the right to TRUE autonomy. I don't think Chechen independence is the way to go, because they cannot objectively have self-determination (they don't have the material basis to be considered a solidified nation-state)- however, I understand why they wish for such a thing. I also support resistance by captive nations and national minorities against chauvinism and national oppression, and I know that the only way this kind of exploitation and oppression can be ended is if a new October happens and the Chechen people are granted autonomy within the new socialist Russia (or U.S.S.R.).

I am suprised that so many self-proclaimed "Communists" here are actually supporting the Russian Army in attacking Chechnya! As an American, I know what it is like to have Islamic fundamentalists attack and kill thousands of innocent people in a terrorist attack, but I also firmly oppose the American occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq, because I see that it only serves the interests of imperialist capitalism in dominating these people. Putin's plans for Chechnya are no different, and will most likely create only more terrorists... so can you really support Putin's regime and still call yourself a Communist? Think about it.
Comrade Andrei Mazenov
2007 Winner of Soviet-Empire's A View to Kilt Award

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Soviet cogitations: 4394
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Jun 2004, 17:30
Politburo
Post 09 Sep 2004, 20:14
Of course the Chechens need self-determination. Of this, I would not argue.

The people who attacked the school, however, are dogs who are hurting their cause. In the same way the Iraqis who are beheading Americans are dogs, in the same way ELF members who put spikes in trees to kill workers are dogs.

Terrorism doesn't work. It isolates the masses from the struggle. I agree with the 'terrorists' struggle in all three of these cases - I think the Russians should let Chechnya go; the US should let Iraq go; and the logging companies need to be responsible.

However, by killing children, beheading American workers, and killing machine workers, the terrorists are only hurting these causes.

Only a general rising of the masses can solve this, and this happens best as a socialistic movement. This is why all three of the above mentioned movements are doomed to a cycle of violence until a legitimate people's movement begins.

I don't even know what I'm responding to here, I just wanted to make my position clear I suppose.

-TIG
Alis Volat Propriis; Tiocfaidh Ar La; Proletarier Aller Länder, Vereinigt Euch!
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Soviet cogitations: 866
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 05 Mar 2003, 16:07
Komsomol
Post 09 Sep 2004, 20:52
Andrei Mazenov wrote:
So the White Armies and the Nazi were able to mobilize a great deal of the populations of certain national minorities to fight against the socialist state *shrugs*... that still doesn't justify taking away the right to autonomy, or massacring them, etc.


Come on, Mazenov. They had socialism, equal rights, no exploitation by majority etc. What else did they need? What did they fight for? Chechen banditism during twenties has nothing to do with White Army. It was same activity as always: kidnapping people from bordering Georgia, killing non-Muslim population and so on. Also, Chechen autonomy was liquidated only once, and by Stalin. Modern Russia did not oppress them any more than all other citizens before they started the mess.

Andrei Mazenov wrote:
The same goes with the Chechen national minority, ESPECIALLY when it is the Russian CAPITALIST state (and its army) that is oppressing them.


I still wonder what makes Chechens so special. Caucasus is a troubled region... because of them. There is a republic of Karachaevo-Cherkesija of the same size as Chechnya, populated by 80 (eighty) nationalities of 5 (five) major religions. Why don't they cut each other, kill kids and enslave people? And why did they Chechens attack school in Beslan? Osetija is not Russia, mind you, and none of the kids killed in Beslan were Russian children!

Andrei Mazenov wrote:
I cannot see there being any honest autonomy for any of Russia's oppressed nationalities within the current capitalist state. What Russians and Chechens need is socialism, and once they have that the Chechen people will have the right to TRUE autonomy.


Surely you can't see it from your America. I sincerely have no idea why you go on about oppressed nationalities here. "Democratic" capitalism is not racist; it doesn't matter for it whom to exploit since it doesn't affect profit. I agree that Chechnya needs socialist government but if you give them full independence again (reason?) it will lead to same consequences - restoration of bloody Islamic regime, slavery and mass killings. As I already said, I'm for a single state with equality for everybody (preferably without autonomies) and against turning Russia into a bunch of feudal kingdoms constantly at war with each other.

Andrei Mazenov wrote:
As an American, I know what it is like to have Islamic fundamentalists attack and kill thousands of innocent people in a terrorist attack, but I also firmly oppose the American occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq, because I see that it only serves the interests of imperialist capitalism in dominating these people. Putin's plans for Chechnya are no different, and will most likely create only more terrorists... so can you really support Putin's regime and still call yourself a Communist?


You seem to forget one thing: Iraq and Afghanistan are independent nations that America seeks to turn into colonies and Chechnya is a part of Russia. I don't care about Putin and nor do I support his corrupt regime, but besides being a communist I'm also a realistic fellow and I don't want to repeat Yeltsinoids' mistake of 1996...
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Soviet cogitations: 269
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 Aug 2004, 05:13
Komsomol
Post 10 Sep 2004, 01:10
hahaha putin just reminded the chechens he had nuclear power.
I don't think putin will even use them; I mean he can't! It's a civil conflict. He was calling this his 911 with only 400 people dead.....However, the American's 911 had a lot more dead! But I don't want to be nit-picky about it. Anyways the Chechens are some mean motha Frag to kill little kids. I mean, terrorism is getting a bad rep by doing that....damnit why cant someone plan a terrorist attack on MTV headquarters? And I guess the chechens were suported by Al-Queda.

TIG Edit - Edited for clarity. Also, as a friendly gesture, I took out the section about Jews and the Holocaust. I'm not sure what you were trying to say - but just tred lightly on this subject, Comrade.
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Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 24 Nov 2004, 00:36
Sad indeed. My heart goes out to those poor people who lost their lives..


" Same with thousands and thousands of Russian POW, it is estimated that what around 1-2 Million Russian POW, sided with Nazi Germany to Fight Stalin, but this must be propaganda cause stalin was well loved every where in the country "

That is not propaganda, ROA, Russian Liberation Army. Russians who fought to release Russia from Stalin and communism. The army was formed in 1943, but before that, already in 1941, German army had several units consisted of Russian people. Observe, people from many nations joined SS, even Russian cossacks.

http://axishistory.com/index.php?id=4743
Soviet cogitations: 614
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Nov 2004, 01:27
Komsomol
Post 08 Dec 2004, 21:59
Well, good ideas Tito, but nuking isn't that good, since chechenya is Russian Territory, and nuking yourself is not that good.

But sending about 200,000 men, tanks and choppers there and putting every single one of those chechen vermin to the sword is the ideal thing to do. Russia could use another space centre, or something like that, or a place for Communist HQ.

Russia
Soviet cogitations: 148
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 02 May 2004, 18:28
Pioneer
Post 09 Dec 2004, 07:28
Lord_Tito wrote:
YES I MEAN IT! NUKE those religos fanatics to HELL


imperialist
So I read in the paper that the good guys won the war, and the red star won't be shining over moscow anymore, and my heart fell like a sparrow in the midst of my despair, when i saw la passionara with a flower in her hair
Soviet cogitations: 148
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 02 May 2004, 18:28
Pioneer
Post 09 Dec 2004, 07:38
Ognen wrote:
....soem crap justifying russian slaughter of chechen civilians on a pseudo-racial nationalist basis that i can't be asked to include in this post because its lonmg and boring and full of shit...


what an abolsute load of bollocks, how does the fact that the tsars conquered chechyna in the 18th or 19th century mean that chechyna shoudl come under the power of russian imperialism, i suppose vaccum bombing chechynian civilians is completely different to cluster bombing iraqis isn't it

i'm sorry but frag u, and yr claim that borugeois democracies aren't racist is absolutely ridiculous, your marxist theory is as weak as a tankies piss

national liberation movements are always reactionary in character, and you may not support them, certainly in this case i agree with you, buit i'm not going to cheer lead the russian fragging capitalist imperilaist army.

not to mention that the beslan school incident has frag allto do with chechen seperatism, as most chechens, even the most reactionary bourgeois elements, openly condemned the attacks.

Read some marx and get some class analysis you nationalist bastard.
So I read in the paper that the good guys won the war, and the red star won't be shining over moscow anymore, and my heart fell like a sparrow in the midst of my despair, when i saw la passionara with a flower in her hair
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 782
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 25 Nov 2004, 17:44
Unperson
Post 09 Dec 2004, 15:16
boxing_kangaroo1101 wrote:
when the soviet union was around, did they have these problems with chechnya?

Andrew



Nope, they just shot everybody who did not agree with "motherland".
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 989
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 05 Jul 2004, 01:47
Komsomol
Post 09 Dec 2004, 15:18
One Big Union wrote:
Ognen wrote:
....soem crap justifying russian slaughter of chechen civilians on a pseudo-racial nationalist basis that i can't be asked to include in this post because its lonmg and boring and full of shit...


what an abolsute load of bollocks, how does the fact that the tsars conquered chechyna in the 18th or 19th century mean that chechyna shoudl come under the power of russian imperialism, i suppose vaccum bombing chechynian civilians is completely different to cluster bombing iraqis isn't it

i'm sorry but frag u, and yr claim that borugeois democracies aren't racist is absolutely ridiculous, your marxist theory is as weak as a tankies piss

national liberation movements are always reactionary in character, and you may not support them, certainly in this case i agree with you, buit i'm not going to cheer lead the russian fragging capitalist imperilaist army.

not to mention that the beslan school incident has frag allto do with chechen seperatism, as most chechens, even the most reactionary bourgeois elements, openly condemned the attacks.

Read some marx and get some class analysis you nationalist bastard.


Hurrah for OBU and common sense.
Soviet cogitations: 614
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Nov 2004, 01:27
Komsomol
Post 09 Dec 2004, 20:09
OBU, we here are not swearin'-rockin'-on-da-flur-spittin' people. Get some manners if you want anyone with a brain to take you seriously.

So what if the Tsars conquered them? The english conqured a lot of scotland, and no one says anything to them. Nor does the UK get bashed for keeping the Falklands for themselves. Russia and Soviets built everything in Chechenya, houses, factories, and much much more, and now they want to own it for themselves. All chechens who think they have the right to their own country should be shot.

OK, let me try a different approach, There are 4 parties involved in this conflict, The Russian Goverment, The Chechen Leaders, The Russian people and the chechen people.

So, The Russian and Chechen people don't care about politics, they dont want their houses bombed, or their children blown up, they want peace. The Chechen Leaders want to have a country of their own, so that they can terrorise the people much like the Taliban in Afghanistan. The Russians have natural resource, and political interest in the Region. All the religious excuses are rubbish. It is a capitalist conflict over money.

So, it would be better for the Russians to control the region, because if Chechens get to control it they will end up fighting each other as different factions, or making a dictator goverment like Saddam Hussein, or worse, end up killing their own people like the Taliban did in Afghanistan after the CCCP went.

Try talking democracy and national elections to Basayev or whoever the leader of those scum is!

Iraq is a different matter.

Michael
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"Freedom in capitalist society always remains about the same as it was in ancient Greek republics: Freedom for slave owners." - V. I. Lenin

Formerly MichaelZ
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