[praxicoide]

So now that the Burka situation is out of the news, and scandals and government cuts are in, Sarkozy has decided to dismantle half of the Roma camps in France, in a targeted crackdown against a group of people.

Roma face mass exile in crackdown

Quote:

Embattled French President Nicolas Sarkozy ordered authorities on Wednesday to expel undocumented Roma people and dismantle the camps that they call home.

At a special ministerial meeting on the Roma "problem," Mr Sarkozy ordered the government to expel all "illegal" Roma, or Gypsy immigrants, shut down around 300 illegal camps and expel all Roma from Romania and Bulgaria who have committed public offences.

In language that has chilling undertones in a country where authorities rounded up 30,000 Roma people and sent them to concentration camps during the nazi occupation in World War II, Mr Sarkozy pushed for a change in France's immigration law to make such mass expulsions easier "for reasons of public order."

He said that illegal Roma camps "will be systematically evacuated," branding them sources of trafficking, exploitation of children and prostitution.

Mr Sarkozy, who also called on police to target Roma people with expensive cars, unveiled his initiative after around 50 traveller youths ransacked a police station and other property in Saint Aignan last week in protest at the death of a 22-year-old who was shot by police.

I don't know if you remember, but Slovakia tried to pass some anti-Roma legislation, but this was shot down. This action is much less ambitious and overtly illegal, and so the EU decided to sit this one out, saying France has a right to implement its own policy.

As expected, though, this is causing controversy, within France and abroad.

Notice how capitalism does not tolerate those not integrated into their cycle of accumulation. Historically, one of its first actions was to get rid of vagrancy through draconian legislation and workhouses.

[Molotov]

I know almost nothing about the Roma other than that they have a mostly nomadic culture.

Most workers from Europe I speak to however seem to describe them in terms that would mark the majority of them as lumpen proletariat. Is this true, or just ignorance on their part?

[Loz]

Quote:

I know almost nothing about the Roma other than that they have a mostly nomadic culture.

Many Roma here have settled down,and mostly live in "gypsy settlements",and these are often lacking basic infrastructure,althouth steps have been taken to improve things.

Quote:

Most workers from Europe I speak to however seem to describe them in terms that would mark the majority of them as lumpen proletariat. Is this true, or just ignorance on their part?

Yes, most of them could be called "lumpenproletariat".
Their main occupation (at least where i live) seems to be scrap-metal collecting and similar activities.

[praxicoide]

That's difficult to say. I would say that it's partly unfair, since they are traditionalists and are usually artisans or self-employed. A lot of them are merchants, selling used cars or similar items.

I would not be surprised if a larger than average share of lumpenproletariat are Roma, but to lump them all as being lumpenproletariat seems like a stretch.

There are near-zero proletarian among them, that's for sure. At what point do merchants become lumpen?

[Order227]

Praxicoide wrote:

At what point do merchants become lumpen?

When they become free-ranging, rural "vagrants" of no fixed abode, i.e. at the other end of the lumpen spectrum from inner-city dwelling "hooligans". Sarkozy seems quite intent on driving out these undocumented "squatters". Penning them up in "concentration camps" probably won't occur, as I think Sarkozy's intent is to show that he's "tough" on illegal immigration by rounding them up and deporting them in as swift a fashion as possible (out of sight, out of mind).

There is probably an unspoken subtext directed toward Muslims in this action, something along the lines of, "Behave, or we'll adapt this measure to include you as well".

[Wheelchairmaniacal]

I'm essentially just going to quote an excellent post TIG made on the subject. And then wag my finger at Sarkozy for being just awful.

Quote:

To put it another way, there are more gypsies in the Americas than anywhere else in the world. Part of this is because Europeans used to deliberately capture them and force them to the Americas as an early final solution - the "solución americana" (1, 2, 3).

Yet, despite having more gypsies in the Americas than there are in Europe, nobody in Canada, Mexico, the United States, the Caribbean, or South America seem to face these same problems that are supposedly innate amongst gypsies. Nor do Middle Easterners, North Africans, or Asians - all of which have gypsies. It seems like either gypsies tend to just pillage Europe for no apparent reason or, more likely, Europeans just don't like gypsies.

[Red Tom]

Quote:

as I think Sarkozy's intent is to show that he's "tough" on illegal immigration by rounding them up and deporting them in as swift a fashion as possible (out of sight, out of mind).

Perhaps, but then the question must be asked, deported to where? You're talking about people who don't really have a state. And what state would be willing to accept them?

[Order227]

Red Tom wrote:

the question must be asked, deported to where? You're talking about people who don't really have a state. And what state would be willing to accept them?

Good questions. The thing is, Sarkozy can't keep them penned up in France, as they'll eventually become the focus of a huge international stink. So if he goes ahead with this roundup, he'll have to move fast to get rid of them. As for where on Earth he could possibly send them, perhaps French Guiana? Not as prisoners, of course, but as "permanent colonists".

There's also the possibility that this new "tough on Roma" line is simply a red herring designed to take the heat off other pressing issues that hit Sarkozy much closer to home.

[Conscript]

Quote:

To put it another way, there are more gypsies in the Americas than anywhere else in the world.

I don't think that's true. There's a significant gypsy minority outside of europe, but I think there's more in europe anywhere else.

None of the sources deal with gypsy populations either.

A quick look here makes it seem like there are more in europe then anywhere else:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_populations

[T 34]

Since a new death from the police (a 22 years olds roma men killed during a pursuit) Sarkozy use the racism and the security arguments for distract the franch people from the bettancourtgate and the destruction of the solidarity system of pension.

The Roma comes from Romania and Bulgary, theres are an economic immigration (like of non Roma romanians and bulgarians), furthermore in their original country the romas are discriminated.

In France there is a law who order to the municipality to build a campsite from the nomads but this law is rarely respected.

[The Immortal Goon]

Quote:

I don't think that's true. There's a significant gypsy minority outside of europe, but I think there's more in europe anywhere else.

Your link says 9 million in Europe and Asia. The United States alone has at least a million. I can't find better numbers than this and don't want to bother digging further. Regardless, there are more than nine countries in Eurasia - meaning the US has more gypsies than any country there. One can account for density and such, but Eurasia is huge - and there are gypsies in Mexico and Canada as well which - in theory - should broaden the American count considerably.

Regardless, if they were the menace that they're made out to be in Europe, one should have some problem in one American country regarding the gypsies. Thus far, I've never heard of a single one. There is no gypsy issue in any country that isn't in Europe - even though there are gypsies there.

[Loz]

I don't know what are your opinions on the "melting pot" concept,but here it's an official(schoolbook) explanation for the "American nation".
My only guess is that gypsies became integrated into the society(the new land probably gave them new opportunities for "honest labor" and "new life"),while that wasn't and still isn't true in Europe.
Gypsies of today (at least in ex-YU) mostly live from marginal jobs such as waste "management"(historically they were famous for fortune-telling and music).

Btw,what's the gypsy position in America compared to the position of black population like?

[Order227]

There is no "gypsy" position in the US. I've lived here 39 years (all my life) and have never read a headline that states "Gypsy Protests Broken Up By Riot Police", or heard an editorial on Fox News concerning the need to control rampant and rioting Gypsy populations. If there really are a million Gypsies in America, they've sure blended well into the background, because no one ever sees or hears of them in the media. The most famous mentions of them are fictional, i.e. Cher singing "Gypsies, Tramps, and Thieves", Jimi Hendrix's "Band of Gypsies" group, etc. So definitely no Gypsy problem in the US. That issue is all yours!

[DSCHBACH]

It might be, comrade Order, because simply the size of the US precludes the regular encounters with someone living a nomadic lifestyle, that, say, someone in the rural UK is bound to have.
I don't get why people dislike gypsies. Some of their sales tactics are great. I remember one woman trying to sell me magic stones. I think she put a hex on me, my life is currently going down the pipe.

[Order227]

DSCHBACH wrote:

It might be, comrade Order, because simply the size of the US precludes the regular encounters with someone living a nomadic lifestyle, that, say, someone in the rural UK is bound to have.

That makes a lot of sense. U.K. is an island the size of Oregon, shared by three provinces (whatever you call 'em-England, Scotland, Wales), so I'd have to agree the available land is pretty well parceled out and defined. Are "pikeys" the same as "Gypsies"?

France, however, is a country the size of Texas. Wouldn't there be a bit more room to share? Then again, perhaps the ancientness of the country has left every speck of dirt parceled and claimed just as in the U.K. with none to spare for "free rangers and land squatters"?

DSCHBACH wrote:

I don't get why people dislike gypsies. Some of their sales tactics are great. I remember one woman trying to sell me magic stones. I think she put a hex on me, my life is currently going down the pipe.

In small doses, I guess it is like going back a bit in time. I think I'd get aggravated by it after a while, which is probably why people in the end seem to be glad to see the back of them. Not many people want to spend their entire lives at a Renaissance Fair, you know?

Of course, if Gypsies were forced by the state to put down roots in a single specific community, assimilation would probably rob them of most of their cultural traits. That would be the price they'd pay in exchange for an end to discrimination and ostracism.

[praxicoide]

Holy crap! Watch this video. It shows police dragging women away during a protest, including one with a baby. Their crime, I take it, is being African.

AFP wrote:

French President Nicolas Sarkozy vowed Friday to crack down on foreign-born criminals, pushing his "war on crime" amid fear of violence between police and immigrant minorities.

Sarkozy vowed to strip foreign-born individuals of their French nationality if they attack police or public officials, in the wake of deadly shootings and other violence between police and suspects in largely immigrant districts.

Struggling in the opinion polls after his government was implicated in a financial scandal and in the wake of a spate of violent unrest, Sarkozy on Friday announced a headline-grabbing package of security measures.

Top of the list, in a week when Sarkozy had already threatened to expel foreign Roma minorities who commit crimes, was a vow to tighten nationality rules for other non-French-born criminals.

"Nationality should be stripped from anyone of foreign origin who deliberately endangers the life of a police officer, a soldier or a gendarme or anyone else holding public authority," Sarkozy said.

Michel Tubiana of the French Human Rights League said Sarkozy was "singing the old tune of the 1930s, aimed at stirring up hatred against foreigners" -- a reference to fascist persecution in Europe between the World Wars.

Speaking in the eastern city of Grenoble, scene of recent clashes between police and armed rioters, Sarkozy said that foreign minors who commit crimes would henceforth find it harder to get citizenship on coming of age.

Screw these right-wing demagogues and their "War on fill-in-the-blank". How can people be so blinded by this obvious subterfugue, and how can they approve violence against minorities for their amusement?

[DSCHBACH]

Yes, Pikey is a term used for gypsies or more generally for lumpenproletariat/chavs, but mostly for gypsies.
The whole thing about squatting is bull anyway. We all know the state's only angry about it as none of their pals in the housing market are making money off people having even a roof over their heads. Vast numbers of houses are boarded up and could be renovated nicely, updated with proper amenities, ventilation and insulation though this social need aspect only apparenly fell to the state when they earnestly took Keynes for real. It's simply the threat that someone can live a life without paying a penny in rent and roaming the countryside and catching wayward animals to eat etc. that simply upsets the state. I can't think of any other reason other than they refuse to become a market - though I would prefer to see not just them, but a greater portion of the populace spread themselves out across the land a bit more properly, rather than in urban centres.

[Decapitorr]

Questionable content removed.

[Mabool]

shut up

Also, yeah. The whole of Europe discriminates against gypsies for no valid reason but their refusal to comply with its version of "order". I respect them a lot for refusing to assimilate.

[Order227]

Mabool wrote:

The whole of Europe discriminates against gypsies for no valid reason but their refusal to comply with its version of "order". I respect them a lot for refusing to assimilate.

Ultimately, their refusal to assimilate harms no one but themselves. Mobility preserves their independence, but it also guarantees they remain culturally and technologically backward. I can definitely see why people dislike Gypsies, I just don't feel comfortable about declaring them open for target practice. There must be a thousand more pressing issues in Europe beyond a bunch of pikeys stinking up an abandoned RV camp.