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CPUSA and Vietnam

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Soviet cogitations: 857
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2006, 09:01
Komsomol
Post 13 Dec 2006, 22:58
On the front of the CPUSA's page is an announcement of the leaders of the CPUSA and the Communist Party of Vietnam.
But what kind of 'communism' is Vietnam?
Go to a store, and look at all the labels. There's millions, if not billions, of garments made in sweatshops, including child labor (against the Communist Manifesto.)
By defintion, Socialism is public ownership. But the sweatshops are owned by foreign corperations, not the people of Vietnam. That is not socialism in any way.
I was studying Vietnam a while ago, and one of the documentaries I found at the library was one encouraging foreign investors. Those who have read Lenin's Imperialism : the Highest Stage of Capitalism know that investment is one of the key methods of imperialism. The investors invest, and then the export the profit back to the parasite company. Billions of dollars of labor and capital that were earned by and belong to the Vietnamese people are sent out of the country, worsening the poverty. And what's worse, is that that Vietnamese government encourages this! They directly encourage imperialism against their own country.
How can a country that promotes the robbery of it's people's labor and resources be called socialist? How can socialism include ownership by foreign capitalist-imperialists?
What could the CPUSA possibly have to learn from them? Is this the kind of socialism that the CPUSA wants here?
Why did they fight to drive out imperialism only to have the government roll out the red carpet for the same imperialist corperations that were driven out?
Ho Chi Minh is rolling in his grave I tell ya.
"Read some of the works of Marx and Engels... couple this with a reading of the Bible and note the parallelism of Communism and the program of Satan." Thomas O. Kay, National Association of Evengelicals
J.
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Soviet cogitations: 605
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Apr 2003, 22:15
Komsomol
Post 14 Dec 2006, 00:51
I don't know what kind of "socialism" CPUSA wants, if any. But the mere fact that they recognise such system as in Vietnam as "socialist" illuminates that their conception of 'socialism' has nothing to do with Marxism-Leninism.

Revisionism in power means bourgeoisie in power.
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Soviet cogitations: 857
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2006, 09:01
Komsomol
Post 14 Dec 2006, 01:34
precisely. But there are still those here who support or are members of the CPUSA in spite of knowing this. It's like the name makes them communist.
And in spite of all of Lenin's polemicizing against revisionism, some deny it's existence.
You look at what socialism was like in the USSR or Red China, and then the cut-throat, brutal, unveiled capitalism in Vietnam, and people still call it socialist.
If socialism and communism lose all meaning, as they clearly have in Vietnam, why is it worth fighting for? It's not!

If anyone thinks Vietnam is still socialist, please explain.
"Read some of the works of Marx and Engels... couple this with a reading of the Bible and note the parallelism of Communism and the program of Satan." Thomas O. Kay, National Association of Evengelicals
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 8108
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 26 Jun 2006, 02:51
Embalmed
Post 14 Dec 2006, 01:52
Oh, wow, I had no idea things were that far gone in Vietnam. This is something I'll have to look into for myself.

The CPUSA is becoming solidly reactionary.
Soviet cogitations: 271
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Jul 2006, 18:32
Komsomol
Post 14 Dec 2006, 02:00
I myself didn't know that things had gone that bad in vietnam as well. I knew it was going the capitalistic road but didn't know how far. It seems that the CPUSA is becoming the very thing communist don't want, capitalist.
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Tim
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Soviet cogitations: 1418
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 02 Mar 2005, 11:16
Party Member
Post 14 Dec 2006, 02:14
Quote:
The investors invest, and then the export the profit back to the parasite company. Billions of dollars of labour and capital that were earned by and belong to the Vietnamese people are sent out of the country, worsening the poverty.


The investors invest in aspects of economy that will contribute to the robustness of the economy. Funding the economy needs to be diversified with investment. Investment reduces poverty, not the other way around. Income in Vietnam has been increasing 75% since the economic reform.

Sure, you can always expelled foreign investors from your country and turned it appalingly into DPRK.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 10753
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 14 Dec 2006, 02:56
J. wrote:
Revisionism in power means bourgeoisie in power.


I disagree with the statement in general, but not on this situation.

Tim wrote:
The investors invest in aspects of economy that will contribute to the robustness of the economy. Funding the economy needs to be diversified with investment. Investment reduces poverty, not the other way around.


Bombed to shit in the war, 2 million citizens dead, blockade from the US and Europe, and trade problems with the Communist block. Not many options.

Tim wrote:
Income in Vietnam has been increasing 75% since the economic reform.


ok example. two people live in a capitalist country. Person A makes $100. Person B makes $20. It would be BS to say that the average person makes $60. Who makes more money quicker if they export their goods? The worker or the capitalist?
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
Tim
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 1418
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 02 Mar 2005, 11:16
Party Member
Post 14 Dec 2006, 08:48
Quote:
Bombed to shit in the war, 2 million citizens dead, blockade from the US and Europe, and trade problems with the Communist block. Not many options.


Yes, not many option, but that option (The Doi Moi Reform) turns out to be the best one in poverty alleviation. In 1998, 38% of the total population lives in poverty, by 2002, it has shrunk to 29% and keeps on declining further yearly.

Quote:
Who makes more money quicker if they export their goods?


WObviously the person who gambles the risk and utilize his ability the most, the capitalist. But that doesn't mean ordinary workers are condemned to be povert. Income grows for both of them. That level of inequality should describe the the level of incentive thriving in an economy.
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Soviet cogitations: 10753
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 14 Dec 2006, 13:24
Quote:
In 1998, 38% of the total population lives in poverty, by 2002, it has shrunk to 29% and keeps on declining further yearly.


I'll take your word for it. But what happened between 1986-1998?

Quote:
That level of inequality should describe the the level of incentive thriving in an economy.


I just flat out disagree. There may be incentive, but the vast majority of workers stay as workers. Capitalism is a meritocracy in theory only. Reality: the rich get richer as the poor get poorer.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
Tim
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 1418
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 02 Mar 2005, 11:16
Party Member
Post 14 Dec 2006, 13:48
Quote:
I'll take your word for it. But what happened between 1986-1998?


I do not have the statistics for it. But I do have the statistic of GDP

Year Gross Domestic Product US Dollar Exchange
1980 57,130 2.05 Old Dong
1985 100,464 6.69 New Dong
1990 41,955,000 6,482.54 New Dong
1995 228,892,000 11,037.85 New Dong
2000 441,646,000 14,169.85 New Dong
2005 806,854,877 15,851.76 New Dong
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 857
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2006, 09:01
Komsomol
Post 15 Dec 2006, 08:44
Quote:
Investment reduces poverty, not the other way around. Income in Vietnam has been increasing 75% since the economic reform.

Not necessarily. It may increase total income, but not for the workers. The wages of workers have been going down in China since Deng restored capitalism in 76. But he brought back investement. How could that be true?
Investment is not neutral. Building a sweatshop in Vietnam does not help it. Building thousands Frag it.
"Read some of the works of Marx and Engels... couple this with a reading of the Bible and note the parallelism of Communism and the program of Satan." Thomas O. Kay, National Association of Evengelicals
Tim
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 1418
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 02 Mar 2005, 11:16
Party Member
Post 15 Dec 2006, 10:04
Quote:
The wages of workers have been going down in China since Deng restored capitalism in 76. But he brought back investement. How could that be true?


And your statistics come from? 250,000 people have been lifted out from poverty in China.

Investor invest in many projects, including infrastructural development, which could yields return as high as 10%, as well as in IT and financial sector. All improve the competitiveness, the availibility of funds, and development of economies.

You simply generalize that all invesments made in the manufacturing industry equals creation of more and more sweatshops. Do you seriously think that these are not covered by Vietnamese labour laws?

FDI also plays the role as transfer of technology, transfer of knowledge has resulted in hundreds of thousands of workers (300,000 workers in 2002)
J.
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Soviet cogitations: 605
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Apr 2003, 22:15
Komsomol
Post 15 Dec 2006, 17:00
Quote:
250,000 people have been lifted out from poverty in China.

Which doesn't necessarily indicate an improvement in the conditions of the working class. I don't know about China, but for example in India the actual poverty rates have increased with the economic growth during globalisation. The officially propagated "decrease in poverty" has been nothing but falsification of statistics, by developing new methods of calculation and comparing the new results with old statistics done with old methods.

http://gamma.nic.fi/~otammile/povindia.htm

Similar falsification of statistics is a permanent phenomenon in Finland, too. Here the ruling class claims that the unemployment rates are not much worse than in 1990, and that they're actually recovering towards the rate of that year when it was 7,2%. Now it's supposed to be at 10% (2005). Yet, if the same method of calculation was used as in 1990, the actual unemployment rate would be 18,8%!
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User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 857
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2006, 09:01
Komsomol
Post 15 Dec 2006, 20:10
J is right. Whether or not 750,000 people did rise from poverty, this does not account for the whole situation- which is that poverty is on the increase, as is polarization. A few people getting richer doesn't help out the majority.
Which kind of brings up a good point - when workers get laid off, less wages need to be paid, so stock value goes up, and the economy 'improves.' A strong stock market is not an indicator of the overall economic conditions in the country, but the level of exploitation.
"Read some of the works of Marx and Engels... couple this with a reading of the Bible and note the parallelism of Communism and the program of Satan." Thomas O. Kay, National Association of Evengelicals
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Soviet cogitations: 1038
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Jun 2006, 07:25
Party Member
Post 15 Dec 2006, 20:35
250000 people is not that much in a population 0f 1.3 billions
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Homer: "You guys are commies? Then why am I seeing free markets?"
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 857
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2006, 09:01
Komsomol
Post 15 Dec 2006, 20:57
cmoibenlepro, that is a brilliant sig you have. That says more than a thousand words.
"Read some of the works of Marx and Engels... couple this with a reading of the Bible and note the parallelism of Communism and the program of Satan." Thomas O. Kay, National Association of Evengelicals
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 857
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2006, 09:01
Komsomol
Post 15 Dec 2006, 21:21
Quote:
Sure, you can always expelled foreign investors from your country and turned it appalingly into DPRK.

There actually are a lot of sweatshops in N Korea. Note that tags on clothing and electronics don't say 'S Korea' but 'Korea.' I've seen a few documentaries about the N Korean economy 'opening up' to investment, and how most electronics and shoes that have a Korean tag were made in N Korea.
I worked with a guy that was from N Korea. He said that he worked for a while assembling electronics, but left because there was not enough work to support him.
The story of his 'daring escape' was even more interesting. He bought a plane ticket with money he saved up over a long period of time, flew to China, then to Japan, then the US. A bit different than the Westen version of what it's like.
Still, they got sweatshops.
"Read some of the works of Marx and Engels... couple this with a reading of the Bible and note the parallelism of Communism and the program of Satan." Thomas O. Kay, National Association of Evengelicals
Tim
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 1418
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 02 Mar 2005, 11:16
Party Member
Post 16 Dec 2006, 02:58
Quote:
250000 people is not that much in a population 0f 1.3 billions


Yet it represent a drop of 20% from 67% to 47% between 1987 to 2001. It keeps declining further and further

And correction, I wrote 250,000 which should have been 250 million.


Quote:
A few people getting richer doesn't help out the majority.


It means more and more people earng higher living standars. Besides, factory managers in China earn wages no more than threefold of that of ordinary worker.

Quote:
Which kind of brings up a good point - when workers get laid off, less wages need to be paid, so stock value goes up, and the economy 'improves.'


What does retrenchment has anything to do with stock market?

Quote:
A strong stock market is not an indicator of the overall economic conditions in the country, but the level of exploitation.


A stock market indicates the well being of the financial sector in the economy.

Quote:
The officially propagated "decrease in poverty" has been nothing but falsification of statistics, by developing new methods of calculation and comparing the new results with old statistics done with old methods.


I'd rather trust World Bank and EIU for statistics.

But in India, as of 2005, they legislate Guaranteed Rural Employment Law, learning from China's issue of development, to guarantee employment in agricultural sector and community development, attempting to reduce the social gap.
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Soviet cogitations: 857
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2006, 09:01
Komsomol
Post 17 Dec 2006, 02:25
Quote:
I'd rather trust World Bank

They did a cute little thing in Guatemala when they wanted to build a dam. The people in the valley where they wanted to build it didn't want to leave, so the army came in and killed them all. Poverty decreased by 400 people, a 100% decrease in that valley.
World Bank is one of the most parasitic institutions in the world.
"Read some of the works of Marx and Engels... couple this with a reading of the Bible and note the parallelism of Communism and the program of Satan." Thomas O. Kay, National Association of Evengelicals
Tim
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 1418
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 02 Mar 2005, 11:16
Party Member
Post 17 Dec 2006, 02:46
Quote:
The people in the valley where they wanted to build it didn't want to leave, so the army came in and killed them all.


Yeah, I bet they do.


And I said, I'd trus the WB for statistics. Not for management of economics. IMF has exacerbated many financial crisis in the world and WB only poured funds without inspection and management.
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