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The definitive MiG-29 v. F-16 thread.

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Soviet cogitations: 2820
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Feb 2005, 02:51
Party Bureaucrat
Post 19 Mar 2009, 15:40
Quote:
Within the regional context I would not consider it enough. The goal is to outlass neighbors, and be able to deal with the F-X2 fighters which include not only 4th gen. but 4.5th gen.

For 2 billion, ~48 MiG-35 or F-16 Block 60, would be a good buy. Depending on future political relations, and on whether there are expected difficulties in transitioning from the Kfir and F-5 to the Fulcrums. I guess depending on the importance of AtG vs AtA the trade off would be between the F-16 and MiG-35

==Note that no nation in the region can afford more than a handful of those planes, and they are generally incapable of conducting major repairs and overhauls or produce spare parts locally. Regardless of whether you buy F-16 or MiG-29, if you are in South America, the supplier would be pretty far away, and the supplier may participate in some sort of embargo against you in case of a war, so you can't expect to be able to send the planes back for services and repairs during a war.

I personally believe that the ability to repair and overhaul and produce spare parts, or even whole planes is vital. When you are fighting a third world enemy that has only a handful of advanced fighters and can't repair or overhaul them on his own, your ability to keep something in the air past the first few days of the conflict is much more important than the "advanceness" of your planes.
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Soviet cogitations: 6887
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2007, 08:37
Unperson
Post 19 Mar 2009, 21:22
I would disagree. First of Russia is not known for military embargoes. Or any sort of embargoes for that matter. Modern day Russia sells to to anyone with the money. Second off maintenance can indeed be done locally. For example Sukhoi opened a local maintenance center for the Flankers in Venezuela. Thirdly I don't think that the planes would be unserviceable within a few days. Fourthly from what I understand, Benezuerra has no indigenous aviation industry. This means that it can't produce spares locally. At least not easily or inexpensively. Fourthly a certain amount of spares are always on hand at any given moment. It's not like every new wrench needs to be ordered from across the ocean.

The JF-17 is an interesting design, it's inexpensive, and relatively advanced. But given the availability of funds (2 billion) and the relatively small size of the purchase, (24-48 airframes) it's not a problem to dish out a little more and get a much better bird.
banistansig1
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 26
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 25 Jan 2009, 15:17
Pioneer
Post 20 Mar 2009, 00:21
I'm a Grumman man. What would you have me say about a Lockheed product?
Soviet Music Fan
Soviet cogitations: 43
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Jan 2009, 23:37
Pioneer
Post 27 May 2009, 22:48
MiG-29 is great for having an excellent and proven thrust vector system (this is true for Fulcrum-F AKA MiG-35). Its size is quite big compare to F-16, F-18, Eurofighter Typhoon, and JAS-39 and it's not a problem because MiG-29 is primarily for frontline defense.

Russia and India should maintain more MiG-29s for Fulcrum-F. Let's hope that the Indian government adopt MiG-35 Fulcrum-F.

Quote:
The JF-17 is an interesting design, it's inexpensive, and relatively advanced. But given the availability of funds (2 billion) and the relatively small size of the purchase, (24-48 airframes) it's not a problem to dish out a little more and get a much better bird.


JF-17 is more geared towards the Chinese military requirements. And it is a definite replacement of MiG-21s in third world countries.
Soviet cogitations: 163
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 23 Jan 2009, 15:02
Pioneer
Post 04 Jun 2009, 23:52
Correct me if im wrong, wasnt the Mig-29 designed to be a low cost fighter comparable to the F-16.


If Yugoslavia could operate Mig-29s and save some from the NATO onslaught im sure some Banana Republic could do well with them. I am a big fan of the SU-33 it just looks like a fighter is supposed to look like.
Soviet cogitations: 6887
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2007, 08:37
Unperson
Post 05 Jun 2009, 04:50
The MiG-29 is designed for a very specific mission requirement. Again depending on the variant, and the support infrastructure it would be better or worse suited. If we have 2 billion USD to spend, my recommendation is JSF, PAK-FA, or at least a powerful late 4th gen. Su-35BM, Mig-35, or F-16 Block 60. The recent Silent Eagle F-15 mod is also an interesting one. It features major RCS reduction in the frontal hemisphere.
banistansig1
Soviet cogitations: 163
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 23 Jan 2009, 15:02
Pioneer
Post 06 Jun 2009, 04:29
Ok so lets say our Banana republic is sitting on a nice untapped oil reserve. The Premier has authorized the release of 500 million USD to go to the Peoples Airforce of BR for the current fiscal year. Lets say Russia offers us 16 Mig-29Ks, and 2 A-50s Awacs aircraft. Japan offers us 10 F-2s and one E-767, And Kazakhstan offers us 30 MiG-31s, and a regiments worth of air Defense Artillery equipment. Are beloved Bananna Republic is roughly the size of Ecuador, which option would be better suited to our needs.
Soviet cogitations: 43
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Jan 2009, 23:37
Pioneer
Post 06 Jun 2009, 23:07
MiG-29 familiy of fighters are still the best "defensive" aircrafts. The offensive counterpart might be Su-27 family of fighters.
Soviet cogitations: 6887
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2007, 08:37
Unperson
Post 06 Jun 2009, 23:31
Quote:
Ok so lets say our Banana republic is sitting on a nice untapped oil reserve. The Premier has authorized the release of 500 million USD to go to the Peoples Airforce of BR for the current fiscal year. Lets say Russia offers us 16 Mig-29Ks, and 2 A-50s Awacs aircraft. Japan offers us 10 F-2s and one E-767, And Kazakhstan offers us 30 MiG-31s, and a regiments worth of air defence Artillery equipment. Are beloved Bananna Republic is roughly the size of Ecuador, which option would be better suited to our needs.


Impossible. First off the MiG-29K would not be offered. It would be either the MiG-29SMT, or MiG-35. Maybe the MiG-29M. But the MiG-29K is a carrier-based fighter. Our banana republic doesn't have aircraft carriers. Second off the A-50 would not be offered. It's out of production, and besides the banana republic can't afford it. Not for 500 million. Nevermind the maintenance. Nevermind that the airforce is too small to warrant AEW at least at this stage. There are more pressing needs. The 10 F-2s are a definite no. Iirc Japan has anti-export legislation that would make it very difficult. And the F-2 is an inferior fighter. Thirdly the Mig-31s would be useless. Kazakhstan wouldn't offer them (they need it themselves, and can't provide spares or modernization for them). They're strategic interceptors. A small country has no use for such assets, unless it already has a large and very modern and well developed airforce. When you say ADA, what exactly do you mean? What systems are we talking about? As far as I know Kazakhstan doesn't produce any ADA. So it would be leftover Soviet stocks?

So first thing is first. What is the country looking for? What are the mission profiles that this purchase it meant to fill?

Quote:
MiG-29 familiy of fighters are still the best "defensive" aircrafts. The offensive counterpart might be Su-27 family of fighters.


An arbitrary division of aircraft into defensive and offensive? Do you even understand modern air combat?
Seriously. Nevermind that it's not "the best" by a long long way. The F-22 is clearly superior to it in practically every single way. It's just not an option for any countries other then the US.
banistansig1
Soviet cogitations: 163
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 23 Jan 2009, 15:02
Pioneer
Post 07 Jun 2009, 04:55
TRl lets say money is no option in the great Peoples Paradise that is the BR, due to a large amount of oil reserves. However do to Political parties operating in the area and the political alignment of BR's neighbors America wont sell The F-35 or the F-22, however the outgoing President isnt opposed to selling fourth gen fighters to BR because of increased production of F-22 and F-35 platforms. The President of the United States isnt aware of a coalition of South and Central American states bent on returning the Falklands Islands back to the rightfully control of Argentia. The Br has aquired the HTMS Chakri Naruebet from Thailand. The current harriers and helos need to be replaced. The Br is shoping for naval aircraft for the carrier, Air Defense artillery for possible repriasal attacks from US/UK forces and an interceptor to protect the peoples airspace from bombers. The BR is a central staging point for this operation to liberate the Falklands. Japan has broken realtions with America due to an American nuclear accident at Yokosuka station. Japan is willing to sell her f-15Js, and e-2, and kc-767, however they want to unload a third of there F-2s on BR ,at bargin prices furthermore for an exclusive deal they will give BR ASAT(anti-satellite Technology). Russia is willing to sell any variant of the Mig-29 to BR, or the navalized verison of the SU-27k and Refurbished A-50's with 2 spare airframes for parts Russia requires that BR purcahse 50 airframes though, Kazk wants to sell her Mig-31s and aging ZSU's and SA-6 ADA, China will sell 22 J-10s and 20 J-9s with Asat tech but they want the rights to a Naval base located in BR's strategic oil reserve. You are the Premier what do you do, keep in mind you have political obligations to the people of BR, and to the People of a free South AMerica. The F-15 has a proven combat record over the Mig-29, against sub par pilots, however up until one year ago BR pilots cross trianed in AMerica for Nato/Un exercises. BR's pilots are proably the best in South America. What other options can you think of. Keep in mind this hypothetical.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 4953
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Feb 2008, 15:25
Ideology: Other Leftist
Politburo
Post 07 Jun 2009, 04:59
This entire scenario is useless anyway. No smart Socialist country would consider buying American military hardware.
Soviet cogitations: 163
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 23 Jan 2009, 15:02
Pioneer
Post 07 Jun 2009, 05:42
Soviet cogitations: 6887
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2007, 08:37
Unperson
Post 07 Jun 2009, 07:38
Fun fact: the Thai carrier is ancient, i.e. buying it is pointless. It needs to be replaced. It's not a real carrier. It's mini-carrier like the Wasp class that the USMC uses. It can only carry 6 VTOL Harriers, and a handful of helos. In short it's useless, and can't house any modern fighters other then the F-35 or the Harrier.

Quote:
Air defence artillery for possible repriasal attacks from US/UK forces and an interceptor to protect the peoples airspace from bombers.


You're worried about strategic bombers?
Yeah... no. Don't worry about the MiG-31. You're a third world country. You will never be in a position where the best use of your funds is acquiring an old long-range interceptor.

Quote:
Japan is willing to sell her f-15Js, and e-2, and kc-767, however they want to unload a third of there F-2s on BR ,at bargin prices furthermore for an exclusive deal they will give BR ASAT(anti-satellite Technology).


Jesus Christ... what's your budget? In the billions? And what's the timeframe? Besides who else is in this coalition? You need some major naval muscle to take the Falklands. You need some serious landing ships, and preferably at least a small (though bigger then the Thai) carrier for extended naval operations though you could do without it in the intial attack. Once again I clearly recall export restrictions on Japanese military equipment.

Quote:
Russia is willing to sell any variant of the Mig-29 to BR, or the navalized verison of the SU-27k and Refurbished A-50's with 2 spare airframes for parts Russia requires that BR purcahse 50 airframes though, Kazk wants to sell her Mig-31s and aging ZSU's and SA-6 ADA,


Ignore the Kazakh offer. If you want good GBAD at bargain bin prices buy the S-300 systems that Russia is currently retiring or has in storage. It's what Kazakhstan is doing (and a whopping 10 btlns of them). You can't get new ones because the production lines are full putting out S-400 systems for our MoD. But the old ones can be refurbished and upgraded for cheap and are still the most effective GBAD you can buy. In terms of air power I would recommend long-range maritime strike aircraft. Get the Su-34 if you can, though it's not likely(once again the production line has almost entirely been purchased domestically). The Su-30MK2/MKK could also work. The Su-33 is useless and practically not for sale. The A-50s are not for sale and besides, you don't need them. British airpower is far away. You need to seize the islands. They're easily within flight range of shore-based aviation. Helo-AEW might help. I'm having a hard time figuring out the scale of this acquisition.

Quote:
China will sell 22 J-10s and 20 J-9s with Asat tech but they want the rights to a Naval base located in BR's strategic oil reserve.


They won't. Production lines are too small. And their ASAT tech is not proven enough to export. They might offer the JF-17. But I wouldn't take it. Maritime strike roles for it are questionable.

Quote:
The F-15 has a proven combat record over the Mig-29, against sub par pilots, however up until one year ago BR pilots cross trianed in AMerica for Nato/Un exercises. BR's pilots are proably the best in South America. What other options can you think of. Keep in mind this hypothetical.


Oh it's so tempting to suggest a mix of F-15SE and F-15E for strike and air superiority roles. Given delivery schedules it would be delivered long before the F-35 gets IOC at squadron level in Britain. So you'd have a time window in which to strike when you'd have better aircraft.

Problem is interoperability with your GBAD and other equipment. Also spares and ammo would be cut off after hostilities start, and possibly for a while after they end. Another question is, what do you currently fly?

What I need is an ORBAT of their current airforce and navy, as well as a list of who is on their side in this escapade. I also need a timeframe and a budget. Sorry that I'm so picky but it's very hard to analyze things in completely unreal conditions.
banistansig1
Soviet cogitations: 43
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Jan 2009, 23:37
Pioneer
Post 07 Jun 2009, 10:01
Quote:
An arbitrary division of aircraft into defensive and offensive? Do you even understand modern air combat?


I don't know about modern air combat but I do know that Mig-29 family isn't the best for offensive purposes with several combat examples.
Soviet cogitations: 6887
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2007, 08:37
Unperson
Post 07 Jun 2009, 23:22
By offensive what do you even mean? Offensive airspace control missions? With AEW support, and the MiG-29M or later variants it's more then capable of precision strike or offensive airspace control.
banistansig1
Soviet cogitations: 163
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 23 Jan 2009, 15:02
Pioneer
Post 08 Jun 2009, 02:31
Air force of BR
• 1st fighter squadron consist of SU-24MK
• 31st Fighter bomber squadron consist of SU-22M4
• 12th Air interdiction Squadron consist of Mirage 2000c
• 2nd Close air support squadron consist of F-4es
Helos
• 3rdst Utility squadron UH1N Hueys
• 5th Attack squadron UH-1B
• 19th Heavy lift squadron of AS-532 Eurocopter
• 13th Attack squadron of Denel AH-2 Rooivalk
Naval Aviation Corps
• 1st NFS (land Based) F-111 including 2 ef-11a
• 3rd NBS (land based) Blackburn Buccaneer
• 4th Misc squadron of C-130s, ec-130s, and kc-130s
Helos
• 1 Lynx Mk-81
• 2 SH-60
• 3UH-1N
The Ministry of Defense is configuring the Thai carrier for amphibious operations for a Naval Infantry unit. The Navy has no other carriers, and does not plan to acquire any. However the Navy currently operates 4 Bremen class frigates, purchased the cruiser Moskva, 4 Oliver hazrd perry frigates acquired from eygpt, and several lesser destroyer escorts. Additionally they operate 3 Kilo class subs.
The propsed military operation to retake the Falklands will take place in eight months, the collation consist of BR, Chile, Venezuela, Bolivia, Argentina, and Uruguay. The Br is contributing its naval forces to assist in an AMphibous operation, and naval air assets for follow up operations, and asw operations. It is expected that the US will start proxy wars between the collation via Peru, an Columbia. BR has poor realtions with those countries do to alleged support of FARC, and the rest of the Collation openly supports the FARC.
The MOD wants to replace 31st fighter bomber squadron, and the 2nd close air support squadron, and procure aircraft for and additional Fighter bomber squadron. The MOD wants 2 replace the 1st NFS, and the 3rd NBS as well as aquire an additional NFS, and create a mixed air-refueler/ ASW squadron. The MOD has good relations and support infrastructure with Dassault and Sukoi.
The most important aspect is to get needed airframes for the Falklands OP, the MOD has 25 billion upfront and an additional budget of 15 billion over the next 5 years
Soviet cogitations: 6887
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2007, 08:37
Unperson
Post 08 Jun 2009, 05:07
8 months is not enough time to purchase anything new. And even second hand refurbs would take longer. You could only get "as is" condition second hand fighters. And training and spares will be a nightmare. In short spend the money on increased training and better maintenance for what you already fly, and forget buying anything new. Stock up on spare parts for the western fighter planes so that you know you can keep them operating in case of an embargo. Just a heads up the wait time for deliveries of say a squadron of Su-30MK2s is something like 1-3 years.

Make sure you have interoperatbility with all the other coalition members. Have at least one large exercise involving amphibious landings, with all the forces in question.

Now I'm assuming this answer is too boring for you... so I'm going to arbitrarily decide that we have 3 years until the operation. Heads up Su-24MK can't possibly be a fighter squadron. The Su-24 is explicitly a bomber. The F-4 is a much more likely candidate for the fighters, and the Su-24MK is far more likely to be a CAS plaform, or an interdiction platform. The M2K is a fighter without PGM capabilities, it's use as an interdiction platform is pretty low. I suppose even a hot air baloon with bombs can perform interdiction with some degree of utility, but really....

25 billion to spend up front. Wow. Nice. I feel like a kid in a candy store. Ok then....

48 Su-30MK2, all delivered in fly-away condition. The off-set requirements are fullfilled by setting up a traning facility and some local production of spare parts in BR. These will replace your fighter bombers, CAS, and fighter squadrons. Your Su-24MK will be modernized to Su-24M2 and will be your interdiction unit. Your Su-30MK2 will be your CAS, your maritime strike, and your air superiority platform. This should simplify logistics greatly, and improve costs like maintenance, training, spares, ammunition etc.

You know what, make it 5 years. We need more time. We are going to eliminate your Naval Aviation Corps. Your airforce is small enough as is. And get another 24 Su-30MK2s. They will be in a separate unit squadron and they will practice maritime missions, but remain under airforce command. You're retiring both F-111s (their airframe lifes are about to run out) and the Buccaneer.

For mid-air refueling, you could get more KC-130s. And repair what you have, to make sure it's in good condition. You also need harriers. Get some, and make sure they're modernized to the latest standard. Get at least 12 to allow for attrition. This should leave you with over 10-15 billion more to spend. Now to go on the real shopping spree.

Your attack helos are old. The AS-532 is a medium utility chopper. You're using it for heavy lift?
To my best knowledge there are two heavy lift modern helos in the world the Mi-26T, and the Chinook. The US is likely to embargo you. That leaves you with one option. The AS-532 however you should keep. In fact I'm not sure you need heavy lift. I'm assuming you don't plan to helicopter your entire invasion force. You want ASW, so get the AS-532C which is the ASW version of the same helo. Maybe 12. Replace the UH-1N with more AS-532s. Aim for 24 total. Standardize the fleet, and get something new that way. Replace the UH-1N, and AH-2 with Mi-35M. Go for maybe 24.

That should leave you with another 5-10 billion (depending on a lot of things, including your negotiation skills).

Get 4-6 btlns of the S-300PMU2. Buy refurbished, make sure it's delivered fast, so you can train and integrate it into your IADS. Get used ZSU-23-4s. New are out of production. The Pantsyr-1S has a long waiting list. The Tunguska is also out of production, and you need something for close ADS. Get them upgraded with modern targetting systems, and make sure they can datalink to the S-300s, and to your aircraft. Get 2-3 btlns of Tor-M2 SAMs so you can have GBAD straight on the island once you land. Don't commit any S-300s until the whole island is under control. After that station 2 btlns, on different parts of the islands. The other 2 btlns should be along the Argentinian coastline providing you an engagement envelope covering the airspace between Argentina and the Falklands. (deploy the last two at home) Spend the rest of the money on thorough systems integration and intense training. This part is possibly more important then many of the other parts.
banistansig1
Soviet cogitations: 163
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 23 Jan 2009, 15:02
Pioneer
Post 08 Jun 2009, 05:50
Ok lets say the South AMerican forces liberated the Falklands. Br's orders where met and delivered all assets are in place. THe UK allied the UN with thier cause. American B-1 bomber caught BR's carrier while it was in port for repairs and completely destroyed it, a follow up B-52 strike was met with mixed results as Br's interceptors caught the bombers by surprise. F-22s no frequently Patrol a UN mandated no fly zone over much of South AMerica, a UN base has been estblished in the former Panamal Canal Zone. The UK navy is expected to try to retake the Islands at any moment. THe combined Intelligence appartus of the South American Military Colation knows that four Trafalgar class submarines are headed to the theater of operations. All air units have been dispersed to secondary airfields, the SAMC is has sortied her combined fleet to avoid being caught in port like the carrier. The BRs crusier is operating off the FI with supporting Frigate AA and ASW enevlope, as well as the BRs half the BRS air assets. America has pledged one carrier group, and the new DDg-1000, to help out the UK. Aside from fullfing the UN Resoultion pertaining to the No-fly zone and the carrier group no addtional forces will enter the battlespace.What will be the UKs responce and how will the SAMC fare. Addtionally Georgia and South Ossetia have started another conflict Russia is pledging support for SO, and NATO is leary of getting involved. THe whole world is watching these conflicts. WHat happens next.
Soviet cogitations: 6887
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2007, 08:37
Unperson
Post 08 Jun 2009, 10:53
Do you want me to write a Tom Clancy novel? I don't know what happens next. Well except for the S. Ossetia part. That one's easy. Georgia gets raped by Russia. Again.

I mean come on. Anything I can say in response to this, you can easily figure out on your own. The UK would probably deploy some landing forces to retake the island, and at least one CVBG. What else can they do? Now to poke some more holes. (heh it's my favorite part) The F-22s enforcing a no-fly zone from the Panama Canal to the Falklands? Sounds like science fiction. What are these F-22s using for fuel or engines? Warp drives? Fyi the B-52 does not perform airstrikes against an unsuppressed IADS. Neither does the B-1B. They have B-2s, F-22s, and Tomahawks for that. Those you won't catch by surprise. I also doubt that the US would go to war against a huge coalition of S. American countries. But I suppose that one is up for questioning. I also doubt that the US has basing facilities in Panama to facilitate basing dozens of Raptors there. But again I'd have to check and I don't have info off hand.

I understand the temptation of wanting to look at a Falklands War take two as a prism through which to view modern air combat between certain platforms, but it's really not a very realistic one. With the scenario you described there is no way that the SAMC is holding the islands. The US CVBG will establish air superiority and mop the seafloor with anything you can throw at it in the immediate vicinity of the islands. I also don't believe that only one would enter. This is a major war. A huge war. You'd be looking at 3-6 of them. Possibly more. If the US gets involved at all, they will put everything they need to win on the table, and then some. If the UK is involved alone then they already lost. Even against just the BR forces alone. All they have is harriers for air support, and even if they deploy both carriers, they will be outmatched by sheer attrition.
banistansig1
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 2820
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Feb 2005, 02:51
Party Bureaucrat
Post 08 Jun 2009, 10:58
Discretion is the better part of valour, it might be a good idea to give up the islands. Because by the time B-1's and B-52's are dropping bombs on you, your air force and air defene network would be completely paralysed by the US air power, your enemy would have total control over the airspace above your head, and with the presence of the carrier battle group, your fleet will not survive in the open ocean, and you won't be able to supply or reinforce your forces on the Islands.

The first thing you should have done, was to use political and diplomatic means to ensure that the US, or any other country for that matter, would not be involved in the conflict.
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