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The definitive MiG-29 v. F-16 thread.

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Soviet cogitations: 3711
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Jul 2006, 04:49
Ideology: Juche
Old Bolshevik
Post 12 Mar 2009, 04:23
I know that this question is about as old as Star Wars versus Star Trek, but what would happen if a MiG-29 and a F-16 engaged each other?

Flag to: TRL.
Soviet cogitations: 6887
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2007, 08:37
Unperson
Post 12 Mar 2009, 08:53
You realize this has no relevance to real life.... platforms don't exist in empty space. They are supported by other platforms. They have support assets, stand-off jamming support, AEW, friendly or hostile GBAD, and many many other things. Comparing them directly is sort of pointless. Also. What variant of the MiG-29 are we talking about? What variant of the F-16? What loadout are each flying with? What's the mission objectives? What range is the engagement happening at?

Finally if after all that we come out with one better then the other... it still doesn't mean anything. One is probably also more expensive. Maintenance requirements are different. The F-16 currently has more advanced weapons available for it, then the MiG-29... do we adjust for that?
banistansig1
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Soviet cogitations: 3711
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Jul 2006, 04:49
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Old Bolshevik
Post 14 Mar 2009, 00:57
Well, here's a scenario for you:

You are the Weapons Procurement Officer for the military of a country we will call the Socialist Republic of Benezuerra. Your current fighters are puching 30 years old and need replacing, and you are offered two choices, the F-16C and MiG-29M. They will engage in a mock BVR combat at 50 km; after that, they will dogfight at close range. They will both experience EW activity comparable to what they would experience in a real combat. Is this scenario better?
Soviet cogitations: 6887
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2007, 08:37
Unperson
Post 14 Mar 2009, 04:18
What fighters do we currently operate? Where are we located? How large is our territory? How many do we need? How much money do we have? What other assets does our air force have?

I'm not trying to make this difficult. It's just impossible to compare fighters in abstract. Typically you need a real context within which to compare them. Also. F-16C makes no sense. If anything it would be the F-16E (Block 60). And not MiG-29M, but either MiG-29SMT (if we go with the older ones) or MiG-35 (if we go with the newer ones). A good example is India, their current MMRCA tender includes both the F-16 and MiG-35 (along with the Rafale, Gripen, Super Hornet, and Eurofighter).
banistansig1
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Soviet cogitations: 3711
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Jul 2006, 04:49
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Old Bolshevik
Post 14 Mar 2009, 06:55
Quote:
What fighters do we currently operate?


IAI Kfir

Quote:
How many do we need?


24.

Quote:
Where are we located?


The Territory of Venezuela.

Quote:
How much money do we have?


The funding for the project is about 2 Billion. Should I adjust it higher or lower?

Quote:
What other assets does our air force have?


C-130s, IAI Aravas, F-4s, OV-10 Broncos, and a B-707 PHALCON array.
Soviet cogitations: 6887
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2007, 08:37
Unperson
Post 15 Mar 2009, 23:57
We need to replace the F-4s soon. So ultimately you're looking at a buy of an initial batch of 24, with a follow-on order of about that many more. I would probably recommend the Fulcrum. It's less expensive. You're also not concerned about high-end threats given the region. Also no political strings attached to the purchase is always nice. How many F-4s do we operate? And fyi 2 billion USD is plenty. Hell for 2 billion USD I'd suggest buying a production slot in the F-35 program, and getting maybe 12-18 of those instead. Provided you're willing to fork up the money for maintenance.
banistansig1
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Feb 2005, 02:51
Party Bureaucrat
Post 16 Mar 2009, 05:23
F-35 isn't a good idea unless you are an ally of the US, as the aircraft isn't very cost effective on its own, only when it is integrated with the C4ISTAR and electronic warfare capability of the US and its allies can the F-35 reach maximum cost effectiveness.

Also, Misuzu, what capability do you seek to achieve? Because you can buy up to 80 JF-17's with spare parts or set up facility to produce the plane locally for 2 billion USD.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2007, 08:37
Unperson
Post 17 Mar 2009, 01:44
He needs to match peer threats from Colombia which flies the Kfir and F-5, and Brazil which flies the F-5 and some M2Ks. However Brazil is currently running the F-X2, which includes all late 4th gens. Matching that requires late 4th gens on his part.

As for the F-35, it's a capable C4I node within itself, not to mention an incredibly capable ISR asset. Fyi against the regional threats, it's own tactical target acquisition is also more then enough. All it needs is healthy maintenance and a decent C2 node to keep his squadron operating. The question is whether the territory is small enough for a single squadron to be enough...
banistansig1
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Feb 2008, 15:25
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Politburo
Post 17 Mar 2009, 03:47
Quote:
All it needs is healthy maintenance


And there in lies the problem. Let's assume that there are tensions between the U.S. and Benezuerra which could lead to a military embargo. That pretty much wipes out the F-16 as an option too.
Soviet cogitations: 6887
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2007, 08:37
Unperson
Post 17 Mar 2009, 03:56
Well that depends on how good the relations are... as for the F-16 a number of other countries can help with maintenance, including Singapore, Israel, Turkey, etc. Very many F-16s have been produced, and are all over the world including in some unfriendly places like Indonesia and Venezuela, so spares should not be such a huge issue.

What kind of government does Benezuerra have?
banistansig1
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Feb 2008, 15:25
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Politburo
Post 17 Mar 2009, 04:32
Socialist. And Venezuela was barred from receiving spare parts for its F-16 fleet because of the US military embargo which includes parts from any country, not just the US itself. That's why Chavez has turned to Russia. It's government was more than happy to step in as an arms supplier.
Soviet cogitations: 6887
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2007, 08:37
Unperson
Post 17 Mar 2009, 11:42
If the government is anti-American socialist, then that automatically disqualifies American fighters for political reasons. However that in no way gives us an opportunity to compare the two fighter jets.
banistansig1
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Soviet cogitations: 2820
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Feb 2005, 02:51
Party Bureaucrat
Post 17 Mar 2009, 13:22
Quote:
He needs to match peer threats from Colombia which flies the Kfir and F-5, and Brazil which flies the F-5 and some M2Ks. However Brazil is currently running the F-X2, which includes all late 4th gens. Matching that requires late 4th gens on his part.

==JF-17 is superior to all except F-X2 in BVR combat, EW suits, avionics, data linking, and although it is of rather conventional aerodynamic layout, modern FBW makes it responds quicker and more precisely to pilot control, which gives it an edge over older planes in dog fights.
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Soviet cogitations: 6887
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2007, 08:37
Unperson
Post 17 Mar 2009, 18:51
The JF-17 is undoubtedly superior to ancient F-5s or equally obscolescent Kfirs. The real problem is that all of these planes will be replaced with more modern ones within the service time of the JF-17. Ultimately the JF-17 is only an upgraded 3rd gen. in terms of capabilities. Itá indisputably inferior to both the MiG-29 and F-16 (practically any variant of either one).
banistansig1
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Jul 2006, 04:49
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Old Bolshevik
Post 17 Mar 2009, 23:21
Quote:
Well that depends on how good the relations are...


For the sake of the thread, I will just say that Benezuerra has neutral relations with both countries.
Soviet cogitations: 6887
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2007, 08:37
Unperson
Post 18 Mar 2009, 07:54
That's difficult. Some countries manage good relations with both (for example Colombia) but neutral relations with both... I can't think of a single example.
banistansig1
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Soviet cogitations: 2820
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Feb 2005, 02:51
Party Bureaucrat
Post 18 Mar 2009, 11:21
Quote:
Ultimately the JF-17 is only an upgraded 3rd gen.

==Albeit intended to be a low cost fighter, JF-17 does possess all the characteristics of a 4th generation fighter, it has a thrust to weight ratio of more than 1, it is of modern aerodynamic design (unstable in the pitch axis, LERX), it is capable of using active radar guided BVRAAM, a radar with look down shoot down capability, can track 10 targets during track while scan and engage two targets, it has a glass cockpit and helmet mounted sight, it has a comprehensive EW suit that includes RWR, MAW, jamming pod and chaff and flare dispensers, and the useMIL-STD-1553B allowing it to use most Chinese and western avionics with little modification.

Of course, it is still inferior to modern variants of MiG-29 and F-16, but it's only half the cost of either, and plenty of potential to be upgraded, and the possibility of local production and overhaul is a good kick start for an indigenous aviation industry.
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Soviet cogitations: 6887
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2007, 08:37
Unperson
Post 18 Mar 2009, 20:38
Within the regional context I would not consider it enough. The goal is to outlass neighbors, and be able to deal with the F-X2 fighters which include not only 4th gen. but 4.5th gen.

For 2 billion, ~48 MiG-35 or F-16 Block 60, would be a good buy. Depending on future political relations, and on whether there are expected difficulties in transitioning from the Kfir and F-5 to the Fulcrums. I guess depending on the importance of AtG vs AtA the trade off would be between the F-16 and MiG-35.
banistansig1
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 25 Jan 2009, 15:17
Pioneer
Post 19 Mar 2009, 01:25
The F-35 is junk, pure military welfare.
Soviet Music Fan
Soviet cogitations: 6887
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2007, 08:37
Unperson
Post 19 Mar 2009, 04:18
Would you like to qualify that statement with any knowledge or evidence?

And while you're at it, why don't you tell me what the mission profiles of the F-35 are. Just so I know that you have the slightest idea of what this is about...
banistansig1
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