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world war 3

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Soviet cogitations: 1445
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 24 Mar 2003, 19:17
Unperson
Post 02 Jan 2005, 13:50
Again, neonazis try to post more lies!


Finnish neonazi Turhapuro wrote:
For example, he claimed that finnish submachine gun did not have drum clip


Actually, you are liar - you have just lied about my words.

I didn't claimed anything like you said here.

I just claimed that BOTH Soviet and Finnish SMGs had both drum and clip magazines available for them during Winter War.

You used "drum clip" myth as theory to back your weird claims about "Soviets losing 200-300 thousands of soldiers", and I just disproved your myth, by posting links to Winter War era Soviet SMGs that had drum magazines, and Suomi SMG with stick magazine.

Check that:

interrupt_00h wrote:
Image


The magazine is not a drum, with only 20 bullets inside.


So, you see, it doesn't prove that Finns didn't have drum clip, that just proves that your theory about "finns had drum clips and Soviets didn't have them" (or, as extreme variant: "Soviets didn't have SMGs") is wrong.

In case you don't know RKKA had drum-based SMGs long before Finland joined Axis.




TO EVERYONE:

This is Turhapuro's attempt to resurrect Birkin's discussion, in which he claimed that Soviets didn't had SMGs at all (!) during Winter War, and they ripped-off SMG idea from Finns. He even claimed that PPD-40 is clone of "Suomi", made after Winter War. Probably, this Birkin never heard about PPD-35 and earlier models.


Those who are really interested in question, better ignore Finnish rants, and simply check technical data on weaponry:

Suomi SMG:
http://handgun.kapyar.ru/page.php?pg=393

PPD SMG:
http://handgun.kapyar.ru/page.php?pg=322

So, you see, Birkin's and Turhapuro's claims are simple propagandish neonazi crap.
Soviet cogitations: 1445
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 24 Mar 2003, 19:17
Unperson
Post 02 Jan 2005, 13:54
PS: Oh, by the way, Turhapuro, you said that I do not know anything about economics. Tell me, how is it possible to finish THE most prestigious economical university (Financial Academy) in Commonwealth of Independant States and "do not know anything about economics"? You are getting more and more ridiculous in your claims.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 1019
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Dec 2004, 21:30
Party Member
Post 02 Jan 2005, 14:50
interrupt_00h wrote:
Tell me, how is it possible to finish THE most prestigious economical university (Financial Academy) in Commonwealth of Independant States and "do not know anything about economics"?

It just proves that your economic schools are shitty.


Or maybe you read something like marketing or bookkeeping. They have nothing to do with macroeconomics etc.
Soviet cogitations: 1445
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 24 Mar 2003, 19:17
Unperson
Post 02 Jan 2005, 17:23
Turhapuro:

Quote:
You said Birkin was impostor because he said something like "famous drum clip" and you reply was sometrhing like OMG THIS PROVES YOU ARE LYING IMPOSTOR IT HAD NO DRUM CLIP OMG OMG!!.


[SF edit: Cut. See Forum Rules] I posted IMAGE, and LINKS that prove my claim (Birkin posted nothing).

Here's image:
Image


Here's links:

http://handgun.kapyar.ru/page.php?pg=393

http://handgun.kapyar.ru/page.php?pg=322

You ignore them just like you ignored "WHITE BOOK OF REFORMS" - because facts can break your illusory world, and you will have no reason to live. That is western judeochristian philosophy - "only one right way", and everything else is "satan's temptations" for you. Arguing with you about Soviet economy is like arguing with Christians about existance of God.

And, again, here's "White Book of Reforms" again:

http://www.patriotica.ru/actual/white_book.zip

But you simply do not care - if facts do not fit into your judeochristian dualism, you simply ignore the facts.

I also gave you reference to "Casualities of Russia and USSR in wars of XX century" research book - another classic work that is no longer debated. Did you read it? No, you didn't. Because if they do not agree with your claims about "200-300 thousands Soviet soldiers dead in Winter War", they simply do not exist for you. You live in world of illusions, and I see no point in trying to break your illusions. I post this links not for you, but for people who are open-minded enough to read them.


Quote:
It just proves that your economic schools are shitty.


That proves nothing, since FA (Financial Academy) is not "economic school" of producing "businessmen" - it is ACADEMY, for producing ECONOMICAL SCIENTISTS. And best one on the continent, by the way.



Quote:
Or maybe you read something like marketing or bookkeeping. They have nothing to do with macroeconomics etc.


Again, lame argument.

My primary fields were "Mathematical Methods in Economy" (which is mostly about the topic - analyzing macroeconomical situation, stability and growth, as well as methods of statistical measurement of economy) and "Financial Management".

As for bookkeeping, I always was bad at it - it is not one of my strongest sides.

In economics, my strongest sides are econometrics (for obvious reason - my first profession involved lots of maths) and geoeconomics (managing industry and logistics on continent-scale).

So, I am good at macroeconomics.

But bookkeeping... Nah, I am bad at it.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 1019
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Dec 2004, 21:30
Party Member
Post 02 Jan 2005, 17:58
interrupt_00h wrote:
Turhapuro:
Quote:
You said Birkin was impostor because he said something like "famous drum clip" and you reply was sometrhing like OMG THIS PROVES YOU ARE LYING IMPOSTOR IT HAD NO DRUM CLIP OMG OMG!!.

Lamer. I posted IMAGE, and LINKS that prove my claim (Birkin posted nothing).
So? I knew that Suomi-kp had two different clips, you apparently did not.

Quote:
I also gave you reference to "Casualities of Russia and USSR in wars of XX century" research book - another classic work that is no longer debated. Did you read it? No, you didn't. Because if they do not agree with your claims about "200-300 thousands Soviet soldiers dead in Winter War", they simply do not exist for you. You live in world of illusions, and I see no point in trying to break your illusions. I post this links not for you, but for people who are open-minded enough to read them.

Here we see how reliable your "scientific" books are. My books say that approximately 200 000 died and 600 000 wounded [SF note: Which books? Titles? Authors?]. I bet your book says that only 50 000 died (USSR official numbers after war).

Quote:
And best one on the continent, by the way.


Yeah, sure. That explains why your economy is so great


[SF edit: Cut. If "yadda" is all you have to say then don't bother posting at all]

And by the way, could you reply to McManus and John Ryan about their claims in the other topic? I am sure you have good explanations to all claims they made.
Soviet cogitations: 1445
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 24 Mar 2003, 19:17
Unperson
Post 02 Jan 2005, 19:53
Turhapuro:

Quote:
So? I knew that Suomi-kp had two different clips, you apparently did not.


Why? I knew it.

Seems that I am familiar with these events much more than you are. Like I said, my granddad was RKKA commander during Winter War and several other conflicts.



Quote:
Here we see how reliable your "scientific" books are.


SCIENTIFIC books are ANALYZING casualities, and not "guessing" like you are.

The difference between scientific book and non-scientific is that scientific facts are verifiable and objective, which means - non-dependant on worldview of reader.

That means - no politically-opiniated sources are acceptable.

The "sources" you posted are "guessing" of finnish neonazis. Studying these sources won't tell ANYTHING about real casualities, and is good only for psychologists and psychoanalysts who study human behavior.

Like I said - I NEVER REFER TO POLITICALLY-OPINIONATED SOURCES. All books I refer to do not have any political stance. They are simple science.

Here's that book on Soviet casualities:

Image


It includes casualities of both Imperial, Soviet and Democratic era, so it simply cannot have any political stance.

It does not include any "guessings" like "we lost 50,000 people", but they post EXACT numbers, counted down to the last man.

This book is statistical research, it is used by both communists and anti-communists.

Same with "White Book of Reforms". Here it is:

Image


It is statistical research. It includes lots of verifiable data, and that's the only thing that is important.

Your theories about "Soviet economy had debt" is not verifiable, only measurable information is verifiable.

Again, I gave you two books that are NOT biased. If I wanted to give you cheap Soviet war-time agitprop, I would give you some Soviet-era books.



Quote:
My books say that approximately 200 000 died and 600 000 wounded


Three questions:

1.What books? Names? Authors?

2.How much EXACTLY? "200,000 died" is not the answer - it means that you DO NOT HAVE the answer. Give me exact number, down to the last man.

3.Do you realize that this number is larger, than total amount of combatants?



No, really - do you think that Soviets can suffer higher casualities, than size of their attacking force?




Quote:
I bet your book says that only 50 000 died (USSR official numbers after war).


No. But it actually depends on what you say "died". There are such thing as combat casualities and non-combat casualities. There is also prisoners.

As for combat casualities, they are much less than 50,000 people died.

Infantry suffered 43,904 people died.

Tank forces suffered 1,513 people died.

Artillery - 257 people died.

Signal troops - 60 people died.

Engineering - 96 people died.

Paratroopers - 658 people died.

Total - 46,488 died.

If you are interested in more specific info (how many sargeants or officiers died in each army or branch, etc), just check the book. Or you can ask me, I will re-type.

Of course, there are also lots of people who died from diseases or accidents, but it is natural reasons that do not depend on Mannerheim line and finnish Suomi SMGs.




Quote:
Yeah, sure. That explains why your economy is so great


That has nothing to do with economists. It is about having national government (and not colonial administration) as well as climatic restrictions.



Quote:
And by the way, could you reply to McManus and John Ryan about their claims in the other topic?


You mean Abrams topic? I am going to check it now, thanks for reminding me.
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 2
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 10:39
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 02 Jan 2005, 20:55
[quote]Three questions:

1.What books? Names? Authors?

2.How much EXACTLY? "200,000 died" is not the answer - it means that you DO NOT HAVE the answer. Give me exact number, down to the last man.

3.Do you realize that this number is larger, than total amount of combatants?



No, really - do you think that Soviets can suffer higher casualities, than size of their attacking force?

[/quote]


200,000 KIA is Finnish army estimation after war, not bad estimation when soviet irrecoverable losses were atleast 126 875 (G.F.Krivosheev )
more info: [url]http://www.winterwar.com/War'sEnd/casualti.htm[/url]

And of course casualties can be higher than their attacking force, don't forget replacements and transfers
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 1019
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Dec 2004, 21:30
Party Member
Post 02 Jan 2005, 22:45
Tango said it. GJ Tango.
Soviet cogitations: 39
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 23 Nov 2004, 15:18
Pioneer
Post 02 Jan 2005, 23:15
Just the copy from GPW section:

(snip)
Ah!! Those Soviet losses in Winter War:

Losses: Dead: Wounded: Frozen: Disappeared:
Molotov 1940: 207,610 48,747 158.863
Semiryaga 1990: 245,000 53,522 163,772 12,064 16,208
GPW handbook: 257,579 56,612 173,671 11,060 16,236
Noskov 1990: 293,510 72,408 190,369 13,213 17,520
Aptekar 1992: 445,000 131,476 325,000


Aptekar investigated unit casualty reports to division HQs and noticed, that HQ casualty reports were consistently 30% lower than combined unit casualty reports. He got those casualty levels by counting the names from casualty indexes of Red Army archives.
(snip)
... And also the newest figures released by Krivosheev refered by Tango.

These are all Soviet/Russian sources.

Interrupt_00h, how many casualties, divided for dead, wounded, (maybe missing also) do your sources state for Finnish side?

You stated that 200,000 is more than total amount of combatants. How many Soviet soldiers did participate to Winter War?
Soviet cogitations: 39
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 23 Nov 2004, 15:18
Pioneer
Post 03 Jan 2005, 01:17
interrupt_00h wrote:
Black market trader? In 70ies? DO YOU SUPPOSE THAT WE WILL BELIEVE IT?

Again, what can I expect from impostor?

Seems that little impostor doesn't know that trading was illegal, and considered crime.

You had more chances of seeing maniac murderer on rampage, than seeing trader.

KGB is not sleeping. ESPECIALLY when it comes to foreign visitors.

Finland was officially "friendly neighbour" and thousands of Finns were visiting Leningrad every year in 70s. I didn't see any maniac murderer, I did see some traders and many more "miliisi"s.

It doesn't matter, if something is against law. What Lenin did was against law, but was he arrested? If black market and currency trading is illegal, does it mean that nobody does that? Was KGB 100% efficient in it's work?

Quote:
Impostor wrote:
Also in Leningrad, it was very common that when we left hotel to visit museums or only walk by Neva, we were approached one or two traders.


That is impossible - PHYSICALLY impossible.

All big cities are closely watched. ANY suspicious move would be noticed - when I was kid, I learned it in hard way.

Were you kid in Leningrad at 70s? And I recall that none from our group who did trade were caught. (Well, they basically had to buy Vodka from all of those rubles as one wasn't allowed to export Soviet money.)

Quote:
Impostor wrote:
How so? Do you think Inturist didn't arrange trips to groups containing minors and carpenters in 70s?


Of course it did! But what's your role in the group? And how you, while being only 12 years old, still remember words of carpenter 30 years later?

No, I don't remember his words. I remember his anger, excitement and frustration. He is quite temperamental, and he didn't save his words, descriptions, hand swaying etc. to describe the failings in the work quality. I had recognized some failings myself and his remarks certified my observations (and pointed to couple I hadn't noticed). He was so agitated that he returned to the issue several times after the trip.

Quote:
Even if there was a single building that is as bad as you describe, its inhabitants won't survive winter.

Not true. They will survive winter. Not as comformately as if the work had been properly done, but survive. One can live in arctic region in quite primitive houses if one is ready to sacrifice some comfort.

Quote:
Impostor wrote:
I have seen many ad hoc repairs and self developed craftmanship during my travels and meetings with local people.


Ad hoc repairs of REINFORCED CONCRETE??? Do you think I will believe that crap?

Ad hoc repairs to cars, wooden structures, brick works, tiling...


Quote:
Impostor wrote:
Nothing I know. But that wasn't the question. I wasn't commenting about architecture but about how those buildings were built and maintained at 70s. Carpenters have a lot to do with that.


Carpenters have not any more to do with that, than artists or writers.

You said SPECIFIC stuff:

Impostor wrote:
Even so that one professional carpenter in our group said that he would be kicked out from his job if he would produce such lousy job.


That is obviously lies, you made it up, since carpenter CANNOT produce such job - neither lousy, nor bad, he simply from different branch of work. Carpenter is working with materials like wood, and not with reinforced concrete.

Carpenter produces the finishing touch to the buildings. Or are you saying that reinforced concrete professionals do painting, papering, install wooden doors, copboards, tiling etc? Or do architects do it? No, it will be carpenters (or equal specialists, I know that different countries have different work divisions between craftmen).

Quote:
Impostor wrote:
I have used carpenter here as an example


In other words, YOU MADE IT UP, invented your "carpenter story" to back your ridiculous claim.

No. I have personal knowledge on subject, I've seen it myself and I have professional witness who confirmed my observations. If I were to write about lousy job Soviets did with reinforces concrete, which I did not and which I refuse to even discuss, I would had to rely on third hand witnesses and their writings on issue and I would have very little knowledge what they were saying. So, I choose what I knew for sure by my own experience and wrote about the carpenter, not some perhaps dubious third hand source on an issue I'm not fully familiar with.

Quote:
Repairing my flat will not require any of these (aside, probably, the paint). However, it will require beton, cement and paste compounds to fix few cracks in walls.

You said previously that you had a broken wooden door?

Quote:
As for USA, the temperature on its Northen Border is higher, than temperature on Russia's Southern Border. Russia simply do not have such warm territories like in USA, just like USA doesn't have cold territories like Russia.

I guess you don't count Alaska? In Montana the averages are -13 at Winter and +30 at summer. At Rostov winters are a little milder (-7) but summers a little chillier (+23).
Quote:
In case you don't know, USSR had conscription army, so all adult males were perfectly familiar with "trench lifestyle". If you think that lack of white shirts can bother person who was battering testground dirt with boots for three years, you are simply idiot.

It is expected in military and the training which should be given. Also, at wartime civilians do except the drop in living standard. But in peacetime when official line states that living quality is improving, they really do expect it to show, and not to live stagnated or downward.
Quote:
Impostor wrote:
I don't think so. Keeping that "factor of safety" become too heavy burden to Soviet economy to survive.


What you say is sophistics, contradiction of terms.

Factor of safety is EXACTLY what bring stability and survival to economy.

No, it isn't. That means that lot of resources has to be diverged to building storages to material, purchasing the material and renewing the material storaged, as even in very good conditions the time is limited how long material can be stored. Also continuous technological development makes some storages obsolate and creates needs for new ones. It brings stability but it is also a burden.
Quote:
Impostor wrote:
Even if you design something, but you don't have resources to produce it, it doesn't help you at all.


The idiotic claim that country that holds 60% of planetary resources "don't have resources" is ridiculous.

How do you get that 60%? SU didn't have 60% of population, farmland, oil, coal, etc. SU did have great variety of resources and some of the most valuable, but I don't think it never held 60% of all most critical.

Quote:
Again, I repeat: whom are you trying to persuade?

For me, it is already clear that you are impostor who is trying to save his reputation. You simply do not have even basic knowledge about subject. Obviously, you never been to Leningrad - neither in 70ies, nor in modern times.

My observations seems to be so contradictanory to your claims and you seems to have no defences against them, so your only option is to dismiss me entirely, as you have tried to do.

So, I don't try to persuade you on the issue, but I'll leave it to other members of this forum to decide which one of us has more credibility on this issue.

This argumentation has degenerated to "Yes!-No!-Yes!-No!" contradiction, so there is no use to continue this further. Naturally I'll discuss with you on other issues.
Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 04 Jan 2005, 10:09
Can I ask what the hell you are talking about?

PPD-40 and PPSH-41 were clearly inspired by Suomi submachinegun, that you cant deny. PPSH-41s round-case was almost identical to one in Suomi SMG, and the weapon had same look as Suomi SMG.



And I never said Soviets didnt have SMGs before Winter War. My point was that they hadnt adopted SMGs in large scale. When Winter War started, the attacking Soviet forces didnt have a single SMG.
Last edited by Carius on 04 Jan 2005, 17:47, edited 4 times in total.
Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 04 Jan 2005, 10:52
This might intrest you..

Soviets tried to steal the drawings of Suomi SMG at least once but fortunately their super spy Lt.(Res.) Pentikäinen stole "handled drawings" of earlier Suomi m/26 SMG conversion "delivered" by Finnish Counter Espionage. Hence Finns found later suspiciously similar looking SMGs made in USSR called "Karelo-Finsko Avtomat" (I'm not 100% sure about the correct name or spelling).

I personally think that one major reason for capturing Finnish Frontier Guard soldiers before the war was actually to get genuine Suomi m/31 SMG. It seems that Soviets could capture their first Suomi m/31 SMGs as late as during the Winter War. Weapon was studied there and based on that Shpagin created his own model PPSh-41 which had almost identical round-case to Suomi SMG. Although it was almost as reliable as Suomi SMG it lacked its accuracy and firepower (its cartridge was weaker and rate of fire was slower).
Soviet cogitations: 20
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Nov 2004, 05:53
Pioneer
Post 08 Jan 2005, 22:23
Well, I believe that the CCCP will have the upper hand
Soviet cogitations: 28
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 31 Dec 2004, 21:46
Pioneer
Post 10 Jan 2005, 16:32
Dzhigarov wrote:
Quote:
If such a war would have occcured between the Soviet Union and The United States, we would probably all be dead by now

The war was going to be over 2 days after it started with not a single casualty from CCCP.

Quote:
I wish that the Soviet Union and America could have put asside their differences and joined together to pool their knowledge and resources to assist all the struggling third-world countries and lead Humanity into a golden age.

Actually CCCP did it, U$A - did not


Whoah, that's being a little optimistic.
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 599
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 02 Jan 2005, 23:19
Komsomol
Post 05 Feb 2005, 12:15
You all seem optimistic. They are not going to care about radiation. They hate each other. Before a war both Russia and USA would of made nuclear bunkers where they would have all sorts of life. Some rich Americans had Nuclear bunkers in there back yard!

I've seen a documentary on the arms race so ill give you some facts.

50's to 60's Russia had the upper hand.

70's 80's America has the upper hand.

Simply USSR run out of money and were making there people stave by putting billions and billions of pounds into nuclear weapons.

My view they should of stopped making nuclear weapons when they had enough to destroy the world 1 time over. And used all the rest of the resources into making life better for the people.
Image


Economic Left/Right: -5.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.56
Soviet cogitations: 1791
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Dec 2004, 11:58
Party Member
Post 05 Feb 2005, 12:32
Money means nothing in a state such as the Soviet Union, the army had unlimited funding, they had full acess to all resources required for the production of all required arms.

Quote:
50's to 60's Russia had the upper hand.

70's 80's America has the upper hand.


Turn the history channel off boy, you might as well be reading a comic book.

Amount of nuclear warheads:

1960:
America: 20,434
Soviet Union: 1,605

1970:
America: 26,119
Soviet Union: 11,643

1980:
America: 23,764
Soviet Union: 30,062

1986:
America: 23,254
Soviet Union: 40,723


Soviet Union had the conventional advantage throughout the entire Cold War. That is a common known fact, call it propaganda if you wish; I do not really care.

CIA article regarding Soviet Union:

File 1
File 2
File 3
File 4
File 5
Image
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 599
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 02 Jan 2005, 23:19
Komsomol
Post 05 Feb 2005, 13:00
How does america go from 26,000 to 23,000

WRONG!

Yes thats tue but america had 10's of nukes in nuclear war heads. and USSR had about 3.
Image


Economic Left/Right: -5.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.56
Soviet cogitations: 1791
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Dec 2004, 11:58
Party Member
Post 05 Feb 2005, 13:09
The epitome of idoicy.

Heres a western source stating my calculations correct:

http://www.thebulletin.org/article_nn.p ... nd02norris

Don't make baseless assumptions towards me again.

The reason, most probably, for the decrease in American nuclear stockpiles was most likely due to the enability to maintain such a large amount of operational warheads.
Image
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 599
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 02 Jan 2005, 23:19
Komsomol
Post 05 Feb 2005, 13:23
You still dont understand.

USA had warheads 6x more powerfull than Russia in 70's and 80's
Image


Economic Left/Right: -5.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.56
Soviet cogitations: 1791
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Dec 2004, 11:58
Party Member
Post 05 Feb 2005, 13:28
No they did not.
Image
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