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Is it true that Stalin allied with Hitler ?

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Oct 2004, 15:15
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Politburo
Post 19 Nov 2012, 18:06
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2% ... %281940%29

When the Germans broke the Pact, it's not as if they instantly ran out of all the goods that they had imported from the USSR in the years before that. But in fact, they did get into massive supply problems, especially with regards to oil. That was one of the reasons why they made a grab for the Caucasus oilfields. They also did not manage to produce the amount of grain in the occupied USSR territories that they expected. I don't know about German military production after Barbarossa, but their supply problems were such that the failure to quickly deal with the USSR proved crippling.

I think when people analyse the Pact, or even the war in general, they rarely ever consider these economic factors. When people say that the Germans would have invaded the USSR earlier if not for the Pact, it seems to me that the big question is: what with? Under economic blockade from both east and west, they would have been screwed.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Jul 2012, 03:04
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Post 19 Nov 2012, 23:25
And what's the difference between the Soviets trading with Germany than the United Kingdom?

That graph is also dishonest, and it didn't show up on that wikipedia page you posted. I did find this however, which contradicts what the graph is suggesting.

1939
Soviet Union 52.8 Poland&Danzig 140.8 Finland 88.9 Estonia 24.3 Latvia 43.6 Lithuania 27.8
*German Imports in millions of Reichsmarks

1940
Soviet Union 395.7 General Government
(Poland) 91.4 Finland 79.6 Estonia 29.0 Latvia 68.5 Lithuania 54.7 Belgium 227.1 Denmark 494.5 Sweden 345.9 Italy 508.0 Romania 427.1 Netherlands 406.1
*German Imports in millions of Reichsmarks

1941
Soviet Union 325.5 General Government (Poland) 87.5 Finland 144.9 France 751.8 Hungary 351.1 Norway 280.4 Belgium 561.6 Denmark 410.2 Sweden 476.9 Italy 930.8 Romania 346.9 Netherlands 640.1
*German Imports in millions of Reichsmarks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2% ... %281940%29 - same link
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Oct 2004, 15:15
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Post 20 Nov 2012, 09:32
You don't think there is a difference between the UK and Nazi Germany? OK. There is also a slight difference between "trading" and exporting precisely those goods without which their war effort would not have been possible.

The numbers do look contradictory with the graphs, even if many of the countries listed under 1940-1941 were actually occupied by Germany. But the important fact that nobody disputes is that Soviet imports helped keep the Nazi war machine rolling, and that, without them, the eventual invasion of the USSR itself would have been extremely difficult.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Jul 2012, 03:04
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Post 20 Nov 2012, 23:28
No 14 wrote:
You don't think there is a difference between the UK and Nazi Germany?

What did Nazi Germany do by 1939 (the Holocaust didn't start until 1942)? Just a bunch of pogroms and a plan to deport European Jews to Madagascar or some other far-off land (as noted by historian Havi Dreyfus). What did the UK do? They had a massive empire with reports of genocide coming every year or so.

Quote:
There is also a slight difference between "trading" and exporting precisely those goods without which their war effort would not have been possible.

What source do you have that the Soviets were trading military equipment? I've read that they were trading poor quality iron, but nothing more than that.

Quote:
The numbers do look contradictory with the graphs, even if many of the countries listed under 1940-1941 were actually occupied by Germany.

Countries that were occupied still continued to produce things... The graphs actually made a lot of sense, seeing that an occupied France would be exporting a lot to Germany.

Quote:
But the important fact that nobody disputes is that Soviet imports helped keep the Nazi war machine rolling, and that, without them, the eventual invasion of the USSR itself would have been extremely difficult.

The Soviet Union- a country of nearly 200 million people- traded about as much with Germany as Rumania, which was considerably smaller.

Of course that makes sense, seeing that Rumania was part of the anti-Communist International pact (Axis).

Even before going to the exact source you listed (which didn't include the graph that you proposed), I was planning on pointing out the absurdity of the claim that the Soviets traded more with the Germans than the anti-Comintern pact countries. Of course, luckily for me, I didn't have to base that on pure belief, rather YOUR SOURCE gave me the information I needed to prove it.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Oct 2004, 15:15
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Post 21 Nov 2012, 10:00
Where to start? First of all, the graph came from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi%E2%80 ... %931941%29

A similar article, but the graph gives different numbers, probably because it's on a monthly basis rather than on entire years. For the first half of 1940 and the second half of 1941, obviously the Soviet exports to Germany were so low that they would bring the annual numbers down. The article goes on to say:

Quote:
There had never been such intensive trade between Germany and the Soviet Union as that which took place during the eighteen months of 1940 to June 1941.[140] Soviet imports of chrome, manganese and platinum, for which Germany relied entirely on imports, made up 70% of Germany's total imports of those materials.[141] While the Soviet Union provided 100% of German imports of rye, barley and oats, this was 20% of the amount of the total German harvest.[141] Three quarters of Soviet oil and grain exports, two thirds of Soviet cotton exports and over 90% of Soviet wood exports were to the Reich alone.[141] Germany supplied the Soviet Union with 31% of its imports, which was on par with United States imports into the Soviet Union.[141] Germany supplied 46% of Soviet machine tool imports, and was its largest such supplier.[141]

Particularly important were grain, manganese and chrome—vital ingredients of the German war economy that now faced the British naval blockade.[142] In terms of imports and exports, the total balanced out at 500 million reichsmarks in either direction, but the strategic gain to Hitler was far greater than that to Stalin.[142]


Quite a bit more than just some low-quality iron. I don't know where you got that. Of course, luckily for me (we can cherry-pick our favourite Wikipedia quotations at length if you want to), my previous OWN SOURCE (CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL) also mentioned this:

Quote:
During both the first period of the 1940 agreement (February 11, 1940 to February 11, 1941) and the second (February 11, 1940 until the Pact was broken), Germany received massive quantities of raw materials, including over:[55][76]

1,600,000 tons of grains
900,000 tons of oil
200,000 tons of cotton
140,000 tons of manganese
200,000 tons of phosphates
20,000 tons of chrome ore
18,000 tons of rubber
100,000 tons of soybeans
500,000 tons of iron ores
300,000 tons of scrap metal and pig iron
2,000 kilograms of platinum

Large amounts of crude oil were delivered, with German documents in 1940 already indicating that the Soviets had delivered crude oil at a rate of 150,000 tons a month for five months in 900 German tank cars exclusively reserved for it.[61]


It seems like a pointless thing to deny by pretending that only the annual figures in monetary terms (without a breakdown of what exactly was being imported) exist. I wonder who disputes this and argues that the Soviets only sent "low-quality iron" to Germany.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Jul 2012, 03:04
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Post 21 Nov 2012, 22:05
No 14 wrote:
Where to start? First of all, the graph came from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi%E2%80 ... %931941%29

Pulling out wikipedia articles as if he's embarking upon objective information.

Listen, you've already presented contradictory information. Do you expect me to take you seriously?

Quote:
I wonder who disputes this and argues that the Soviets only sent "low-quality iron" to Germany.


"Ritter said that he would only talk of the major issues. He is interested in the supply of iron and iron ore, associated with large supplies to the Soviet Union of equipment that contains a lot of metals. Initially, the German side had requested 4 million tons of iron ore and 0.5 million tons of scrap. Then it turned out that the amount of metal that will be required will be much greater than envisaged earlier, due to the large amount of orders. The Soviets gave us 3 million tons of iron ore containing 38.42% iron. This iron content does not satisfy the German side.

Ritter asked for half million ton of iron ore with 50% iron. In addition, 200 tons of pig iron and 200 tons of scrap. He argues that the supplied iron and pig iron will be returned to the Soviet Union as manufactured goods.

c. Stalin replied that the Soviet side could not meet the requirements of the Germans, because our steel industry does not have the technology to enrich the ore and that the Soviet industry consumes all the iron ore with high iron content. A year later, the Soviet side, perhaps, will be able to deliver iron ore with high iron content, but in 1940 this feature is not available. The German side has good technology for iron ore enrichment and can consume iron ore containing 18% Iron."
http://www.marxists.org/archive/johnson ... h/ch03.htm
Last edited by Shigalyov on 11 Feb 2013, 11:03, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: insults removed
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
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Post 11 Feb 2013, 10:23
Actually Wikipedia article deliberately forgets that:
- The USSR was selling its oil 2 to 3 times the average price (Golf price). And what do you think they were doing with the Reichmarks they got? They were buying consumption goods, technology, equipment an weapons. For example Hitler was furious because someone let the Soviet buy a few very modern German planes.
- With the economic pact, they got some very important technology such as the manufacturing process of toluene, quite important for the planes, and rubber.
- A part of the oil sent to Germany was actually Polish oil, that is to say about 350 000 tons a year, 70% of Polish production. Hitler would have got this oil if the USSR hadn't attacked Poland.

A few more things :
If Hitler hadn't attacked the West, there wouldn't have been a blockade against him. The American blockade started in 1940 only, not before. According to Wikipedia: "During the last 4 months of 1939, exports from the USA to the 13 states capable of acting as middlemen to Germany amounted to £52m compared to £35m for the same period in 1938"

Therefore, if Germany had attacked the USSR instead of France :
- They may have stoped the war with France and Great Britan.
- It would have been easy for them to find the supplies they needed.
- No blockade against Hitler = No lendlease for the USSR.

Moreover, after the blockade, the only country in central Europe producing oil was Rumania. So Germany had to supply oil to Italy, France and the other occupied countries. If they had attacked the Soviet Union directly it would have been easier for them :
- because the USSR didn't had enough military preparations. Thanks to the pact, they attacked Poland and Finland. The Winter war was very important because thanks to this war they reorganized the Red Army on the basis of "mission command", a new kind of organization already adopted by the Germans. Also they learned how to wage war under very low temperature (during the Winter war, many Soviet soldiers suffered from frostbite) which would prove crucial during the very cold winter of 1941.
- Because the USSR didn't had all the benefits they got from trade with Germany, especially for its war production.

Therefore the USSR had no choice: allying with the Western democracies, or making a pact with Hitler. The Western democracies refused, but Hitler didn't.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 03 Feb 2013, 00:37
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Post 11 Feb 2013, 23:52
At the time USSR wasn't recognized as legitimate by all other countries, was viewed as a area "open for colonization", therefore USSR couldn't relay in international community (international community was likely to support German attacks on USSR).

So, the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact sounded like a assault, and USSR, like Sweden, Switzerland and Liechteinstein, had no choice: or collaborate with Germany, or will be defeated, massacred, occuped and enslaved by the III Reich. It is like negotiate with a kidnapper: Pay the ransom (and fund crime) or let the hostage die.
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