Soviet-Empire.com U.S.S.R. and communism historical discussion.
[ Active ]
[ Login ]
Log-in to remove these advertisements.

Save Honor of Red Army

POST REPLY
Soviet cogitations: 304
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 05 Feb 2014, 00:36
Komsomol
Post 04 May 2014, 18:53
No 14 wrote:

Most of these measures courtesy of Leon Trotsky, if memory serves me correctly. Stalinist regime, indeed. I'll never have it said that Col. Sanders contributed nothing at all.

Of course it was the same Stalinist regime that did actually drag all these "undigested peasant masses" out of backwardness and gave them the opportunity to develop culturally. Unfortunately, the genocidal war started by the fascists did not provide these undigested peasants much opportunity to discuss the fine arts with fanatical SS death squads, or with the settlers of the Lebensraum cleared by these squads.


Call him Colonel Sanders. That will distract from Stalinist reintroduction of

Military ranks
Gold shoulderboards and dolla dolla bling, yo
Encouragement of Dedovschina
Rampant Great Russian nationalism in the crassest manner possible and disunited from proletarian internationalism (sure, pictures of Lenin everywhere... couldn't have any other revolutionary heroes he killed 'em all!)

Anyways sure the war was started by the fascists. But let's not get started again on Molotov-Ribbentrop because you'll just resort to the same insults and eye-rolling as before.

Just because they won doesn't mean they were well-behaved. The point was that poor behaviour was a result of apathy on the part of the leadership to curb excesses and denying this because "but the Red Army is honourable and incapable of misbehaving, stop being 'anti-Russian!!!'" is stupid.

This black-white dichotomy where the socialists line up and are "good guys" who behave like saints on earth while the evil imperialists theoretically rape and pillage is wrong and just as ridiculous as American jingoism. The point is that rape/looting/murder arose from poor education of the peasant conscript masses, lax discipline, and bad leadership choices to allow this.

Here's the thing, too, and I'll say it in an unpleasant way: its OK to accept there will be rape, looting, murder, executions of prisoners, torture. But it is the role of leadership to decide how much they will moderate it. The Red Army did nothing to say "here's where we'll draw the line" and that resulted in allowing the conscripts to treat allied Yugoslavs who'd spent the better part of 4 years under occupation and constant war, and lost people on a proportion to Russia, like dirt. That's not on and saying a documented historical fact from the JNA archives is all "anti-Russian propaganda" or "imperialist lies" is hilarious as it is ridiculous.

The mental acrobatics of Stalinism never fail to amaze me the more I get to see them in action.
[+-]
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 3618
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Oct 2004, 15:15
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Politburo
Post 06 May 2014, 23:46
Dedovshchina originated in the 60s, actually. But you're some kind of obsessive: everything is Stalin's fault, even things that happened under the responsibility of Lenin, Trotsky, Khrushchev, and Brezhnev. I heard Stalin also invaded Grenada in 1983 and he probably also started that fire in Odessa.

Rapists were actually punished. Sufficiently? Timely? Probably not, but still. The Red Army shot people for these crimes, unlike many other armies in World War II. In the end, they "drew the line" by simply keeping the soldiers confined to their bases. Probably too late, because of course if you or I were in charge of a 6-million-man war effort, we would have done everything perfectly straight away.

I don't really know what the rest of your post is about.

comment removed
Last edited by Shigalyov on 08 May 2014, 02:04, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: keep it civil
Soviet cogitations: 304
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 05 Feb 2014, 00:36
Komsomol
Post 07 May 2014, 11:54
No 14 wrote:
Dedovshchina originated in the 60s, actually. But you're some kind of obsessive: everything is Stalin's fault, even things that happened under the responsibility of Lenin, Trotsky, Khrushchev, and Brezhnev. I heard Stalin also invaded Grenada in 1983 and he probably also started that fire in Odessa.

Rapists were actually punished. Sufficiently? Timely? Probably not, but still. The Red Army shot people for these crimes, unlike many other armies in World War II. In the end, they "drew the line" by simply keeping the soldiers confined to their bases. Probably too late, because of course if you or I were in charge of a 6-million-man war effort, we would have done everything perfectly straight away.

I don't really know what the rest of your post is about.


comment removed

Dedovschina the word originates in the 60's, military hazing of conscripts was a problem that intensified under Timoshenko. Who was Stalin's buddy. So there you go: conscious decision by the regime to allow this.

Mhmm. How late? How well? The problem is no lieutenant was told to get control of their men and keep them in line. But sure, use the "nobody's perfect argument" as opposed to understanding 0 effort was taken until the very end because the military and regime simply didn't care. Hardly just saying it's all Stalin here, it's a systematic problem that had characteristic poor address.
Last edited by Shigalyov on 08 May 2014, 02:03, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: keep it civil
[+-]
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 3618
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Oct 2004, 15:15
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Politburo
Post 07 May 2014, 13:40
comment removed

I think the bottom line should be that this happened and it needs to be recognised as the crime that it was, but it is pointless without any consideration for proportionality and context. At the moment, these facts are not being brought in as an apolitical crime against humanity, but as a stick to beat Russia with, a weapon to create a myth of German victimhood in WWII. But no matter how we stack things up, this crime can never undo the overall positive role played by the Red Army in Europe, without which a concept like a "communist internet forum" on which to discuss these things would never have existed. Indeed, the words "communism", "internet", and "forum" would not even have existed.
Last edited by Shigalyov on 08 May 2014, 02:01, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: keep it civil
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 3799
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 Jun 2006, 02:14
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Politburo
Post 07 May 2014, 19:31

Somewhat: Get down your high horse.
No 14: Be more polite and cut back the irony.

Guys, don't make me start carding you for personal attacks. Let's have a civilized discussion.


"Where Argentina goes, Latin America will go".
Leonid Brezhnev

Forum Rules
[+-]
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 3618
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Oct 2004, 15:15
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Politburo
Post 07 May 2014, 21:25
I will try.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 14444
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 08 May 2014, 00:00
Hazing in the Red Army was never that significant and on par with its peers of the day (being an American GI was probably worse in terms of hazing during Stalin's time, must be his fault too). Stalin also was never a military man and generally allowed the RA to address itself.
Image
Soviet cogitations: 304
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 05 Feb 2014, 00:36
Komsomol
Post 08 May 2014, 01:25
Arguing with moderation rulings is strictly forbidden. Just take it under advisement and get back to the actual topic. If you have a complaint you can always PM one of the mods

I ain't even a bourgeois moralist. But seriously, people, what the hell? You raise a slight criticism and get jumped with 10 page essays. You say mistakes were made in a critical Bolshevik fashion and suddenly you're on the side of the enemy.
Last edited by Shigalyov on 08 May 2014, 02:11, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: comments removed
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 14444
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 08 May 2014, 01:49
Maybe you shouldn't get so upset that people disagree with you and are willing to tell you as much. It's not that rare. It would help if you stop accusing everyone else of finding everything "evil".
Image
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 59
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Nov 2009, 17:36
Pioneer
Post 08 May 2014, 07:14
somewhat wrote:
Just because they won doesn't mean they were well-behaved. The point was that poor behaviour was a result of apathy on the part of the leadership to curb excesses and denying this because "but the Red Army is honourable and incapable of misbehaving, stop being 'anti-Russian!!!'" is stupid.

This black-white dichotomy where the socialists line up and are "good guys" who behave like saints on earth while the evil imperialists theoretically rape and pillage is wrong and just as ridiculous as American jingoism. The point is that rape/looting/murder arose from poor education of the peasant conscript masses, lax discipline, and bad leadership choices to allow this.

Here's the thing, too, and I'll say it in an unpleasant way: its OK to accept there will be rape, looting, murder, executions of prisoners, torture. But it is the role of leadership to decide how much they will moderate it. The Red Army did nothing to say "here's where we'll draw the line" and that resulted in allowing the conscripts to treat allied Yugoslavs who'd spent the better part of 4 years under occupation and constant war, and lost people on a proportion to Russia, like dirt. That's not on and saying a documented historical fact from the JNA archives is all "anti-Russian propaganda" or "imperialist lies" is hilarious as it is ridiculous.

Tell us more about this "documented historical fact".
The Soviet leadership did take action quickly to stop the crimes against civilians. Numerous orders dealing with this were issued by the military command.
The point is that these crimes occurred, but they were not organized or allowed by the army leadership, and they did not become widespread as claimed by Nazi propaganda and later by Western "historians" who picked up the theme.
Alternative Display:
Mobile view
More Forums: The History Forum. The UK Politics Forum.
© 2000- Soviet-Empire.com. Privacy.