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Save Honor of Red Army

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Soviet cogitations: 2293
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 31 Oct 2010, 21:58
Very interesting. Can you give a source ?
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Aug 2007, 23:25
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 24 Jan 2011, 23:50
The rapes did occur indeed, but not on a large scale or in any organised or planned way. It was not a weapon used against the German population, but actions made by individual soldiers. In several cases Commissars and political officers actually executed rapists, in order to discourage this sort of behaviour.
And of course, compared to the fact that the Red Army actually saved the world, using rape cases as an argument to rant about the Red Army as a whole is simply nonsensical.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 24 Jan 2011, 23:56
When people talk about that Red soldiers committed rape they always fail to note that this was happening on every single front by every group. Occasionally you hear about Nazi's rape crime against Slavs, and disturbingly even less about Japan's horrific sex-crimes against the Chinese, you never hear about it happening from the Western Allied side. They happened, it's just you never hear about it.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 May 2010, 07:43
Ideology: Other Leftist
Politburo
Post 25 Jan 2011, 00:07
Quote:
disturbingly even less about Japan's horrific sex-crimes against the Chinese

Which is ironic, because there was even an entire episode that has become known as the "Rape of Nanjing."

The Cold War definitely played a part in the strong emphasis on the Red Army's actions, while downplaying what the Germans (of whom those in the FRG were considered allies) and the Japanese (who were considered allies, once they became a bourgeois state with a Western-style constitution) did. I suspect that the lack of attention paid to Japanese actions in many parts of Asia, such as the use of Korean and Chinese women as "comfort women" for Japanese officers, as well as the mass rape and murder that the Japanese soldiers committed might be tied to the fact that many of those countries that had previously been victims of Japanes aggression became states led by Communist Parties in the post-war period, from China and DPRK in the late 40's to North Vietnam in the 1950's and the fully unified Vietnam in the '70s after decades of military action by Communist forces and guerrillas.
“Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals” - Mark Twain
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Feb 2008, 15:25
Ideology: Other Leftist
Politburo
Post 25 Jan 2011, 03:54
As far as mistreating women goes, I can't think of anything which comes near to what the Japanese did to the Chinese during world war II. It takes a lot to make me spew, but some of the pictures which came out of Nanjing did the job. The Japanese government should be forced to officially apologise for the crimes its soldiers commited, not mention the whole invasion itself. The fact that they haven't done so 60 years later shows what the Japanese have for balls.
Last edited by Fellow Comrade on 25 Jan 2011, 04:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Sep 2009, 07:33
Ideology: Left Communism
Forum Commissar
Post 25 Jan 2011, 04:05
I saw a book at the bookstore, but I didn't buy it, that was all about how German authorities and generals basically white-washed their image during the Cold War. They used the anti-communist sentiments in the West to justify a lot of their actions, clean up their records, and hide all the atrocities the German Army committed against the Soviets and other Europeans, or dull them down at least.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Mar 2014, 11:30
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 14 Mar 2014, 11:42
The difference between the Nazi atrocities and those of the Red Army was that the latter wasn't policy. The Soviet commanders didn't organize or even condone the atrocities committed by their soldiers, they simply ignored them. The Red Army didn't come to Germany to brutalize the population there but to take out fascism. After the war they left with all the spoils that they could carry while the Germans fought to bring their families, let every woman bear 1000000 children and exploit Russia for the next 1000 years in the most brutal way. Germans raped Russia out of racist arrogance, Russians raped Germany to compensate for their moral and economic losses. Big difference.
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 20 Mar 2014, 11:41
This is gold. Raping is now compensating for moral(!) and economic losses.
I don't even know what to say.
And for your information the Red Army raped and looted even in friendly countries. In Belgrade alone several young communists ( not to mention other women ) killed themselves after being raped by the "red army of workers and peasants".
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 20 Mar 2014, 21:15
Sure. The whole purpose of penal brigades is having them lead the break-through and clear landmines, not staying in captured cities for days and weeks, drinking and raping. Besides i don't think they had any penal brigades on the Yugoslav front and the rapes and other crimes in Germany happened on such a massive scale that it's impossible to put the blame solely on some penal brigades ( why not battalions )? It's not like we don't have any books on all this.
And just who's trolling here? You know when the Yugoslavs put forth official complaints about the behavior of the Red Army directly to Stalin he just waved it off as "soldiers having fun with women or taking some trifles".
http://izquotes.com/quote/268859
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 24 Mar 2014, 15:20
Where does this quotation comes from? If something like that was true, why did the Red Army took strong measures to prevent rapes and other criminal activities?
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 24 Mar 2014, 15:44
Quote:
Where does this quotation comes from?

From Conversations with Stalin by Milovan Djilas ( for some reason he was Stalin's favorite Yugoslav politician, the only one invited to his private dacha on the seaside ).

Quote:
If something like that was true, why did the Red Army took strong measures to prevent rapes and other criminal activities?

Well obviously these measures weren't enough, even though a lot of people were even shot for these crimes, since it went on for months on a huge scale.
Soviet cogitations: 10005
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 28 Mar 2014, 17:54
Well maybe there would have been less rapes if the Red Army had conducted revolution together with the population instead of acting like just another nasty invader. But you couldn't expect that from an army that had seen the reintrodcution of military discipline, the abolishment of soldiers' soviets and democratic structures, and a huge inflation in ranks and medals over the previous ten to fifteen years. You'd instead expect the soldiers of a revolutionary people's militia to degenerate so far as to behave in such animalistic ways as the soldiers of imperialist armies, which is exactly what happened.

They basically just threw all the undigested peasant masses at the defenseless German and Eastern European masses, with predictable results. You never hear about it happening from American soldiers because it actually happened much less from them. The Americans were much more cultured than the average peasant under stalinism. The stalinist regime didn't give a shit about raising the masses' consciousness, they actively repressed it, and this is the main problem here.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 28 Mar 2014, 21:40
The US army raped many French women, in Normandy hundreds of cases were reported, and much more were reported in Germany, but of course your rabid hatred against the Red Army has transformed you into an ignorant supporter of the US army.

I would speak German without this great disciplined Red Army.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Nov 2009, 17:36
Pioneer
Post 19 Apr 2014, 04:50
Loz wrote:
Sure. The whole purpose of penal brigades is having them lead the break-through and clear landmines, not staying in captured cities for days and weeks, drinking and raping. Besides i don't think they had any penal brigades on the Yugoslav front and the rapes and other crimes in Germany happened on such a massive scale that it's impossible to put the blame solely on some penal brigades ( why not battalions )? It's not like we don't have any books on all this.

And what books have you read about this?


Mabool wrote:
Well maybe there would have been less rapes if the Red Army had conducted revolution together with the population instead of acting like just another nasty invader. But you couldn't expect that from an army that had seen the reintrodcution of military discipline, the abolishment of soldiers' soviets and democratic structures, and a huge inflation in ranks and medals over the previous ten to fifteen years. You'd instead expect the soldiers of a revolutionary people's militia to degenerate so far as to behave in such animalistic ways as the soldiers of imperialist armies, which is exactly what happened.

They basically just threw all the undigested peasant masses at the defenseless German and Eastern European masses, with predictable results. You never hear about it happening from American soldiers because it actually happened much less from them. The Americans were much more cultured than the average peasant under stalinism. The stalinist regime didn't give a shit about raising the masses' consciousness, they actively repressed it, and this is the main problem here.

Did you ever think that you never hear about it happening from American soldiers and always hear that uncontrolled masses of Soviet soldiers committed mass crimes, because of the anti-Soviet and anti-Russian propaganda in the West? I guess you just believe everything you hear...
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 19 Apr 2014, 12:00
Quote:
And what books have you read about this?

None obviously, it's not a topic i'd read books about anyway.

Quote:
Did you ever think that you never hear about it happening from American soldiers and always hear that uncontrolled masses of Soviet soldiers committed mass crimes, because of the anti-Soviet and anti-Russian propaganda in the West? I guess you just believe everything you hear...

Actually in the West American and other war crimes against civilians in Germany, especially rapes, are known of and acknowledged.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_durin ... S_Military

It's just that rapes committed by Americans pale in comparison with the number of those done by the Red Army.

Also cut this "anti-Russian propaganda" crap.
If Soviet soldiers didn't behave like animals released from a leash there wouldn't be such talk about rapes in Germany.
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 19 Apr 2014, 12:14
BTW my grandma remembers Russian soldiers ( those were Vlassov's quislings but from what i've heard and read the Red Army wasn't much better behaved ) who were stationed in their village and they were genuine barbarians. So much for "anti-Russian" propaganda.
Yugoslav Army made official complaints to Moscow about the arrogant, rude and uncomradely behavior of Soviet troops. The English advisers for example had much more respect towards the Yugoslavs. Make your own conclusions from that.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 19 Apr 2014, 13:35
Mabool wrote:
Well maybe there would have been less rapes if the Red Army had conducted revolution together with the population instead of acting like just another nasty invader.


'Conducted revolution together with them'? The Soviet military authorities in occupied territories were specifically ordered not to interfere in domestic politics except in the rooting out of fascists and quislings. This was done for a very specific reason: to assuage fears that the Soviets were going to bring with them an illegitimate 'socialism via soldiers' bayonets'. Also, excuse me, but in an era of modern warfare, a 'revolutionary people's militia' would have been crushed by the Nazi war machine.

Also, how dare you talk about people who saved humanity from enslavement and extermination as 'undigested peasant masses'? Your radical hatred for Stalin and Stalinism seems to have turned into hatred of Russia and Russians, since they made up the bulk of these 'undigested peasant masses' who liberated Europe. These peasant masses, through their victory, paved the way for society-wide education initiatives that turned the Soviet Union into one of the best-educated societies in the world, all in the course of a single generation. Excuse me if in order to get there they first had to win a civil war, stabilize the country, industrialize, win a war, and rebuild from said war. What you seem to be demanding -an American-educated and cultured Soviet peasant, is physically impossible.

Your tone here is just unbelievably insulting to me personally, Mabool, considering my grandparents were themselves a part of these 'unwashed peasants' whose children became university and college educated professionals.

Loz wrote:
BTW my grandma remembers Russian soldiers ( those were Vlassov's quislings but from what i've heard and read the Red Army wasn't much better behaved ) who were stationed in their village and they were genuine barbarians.


That's quite a leap of logic to compare Vlassov quislings to Red Army soldiers, no?


I don't think Russians deny instances of rape; what they deny and get indignant about is the systemic Cold War propaganda based on the Nazi propaganda playbook about unwashed hordes of barbarians from the East coming to violate our pure European women on some fantastical and unprecedented scale.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
Loz
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Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 19 Apr 2014, 14:39
Quote:
Your tone here is just unbelievably insulting to me personally, Mabool, considering my grandparents were themselves a part of these 'unwashed peasants' whose children became university and college educated professionals.

So? My grandparents and their ancestors were unwashed peasants too, what about it?

Quote:
What you seem to be demanding -an American-educated and cultured Soviet peasant, is physically impossible.

That just shows the failure of Stalinism, that a supposedly socialist society couldn't bring the biggest part of its population into the 20th century.

Quote:
That's quite a leap of logic to compare Vlassov quislings to Red Army soldiers, no?

Well they were both mostly "Russians", since YGB85 brought that up for some reason.
What i wanted to bring up was that the Red Army wasn't much better according to stories of some people in Yugoslavia ( and keep in mind that was an allied and friendly country ). As i said there are official Yugoslav documents and complaints about all that, if you want i can quote some.

Quote:
I don't think Russians deny instances of rape; what they deny and get indignant about is the systemic Cold War propaganda based on the Nazi propaganda playbook about unwashed hordes of barbarians from the East coming to violate our pure European women on some fantastical and unprecedented scale.

Well those rapes did happen on an unprecedented scale as hundreds of thousands were raped, i think it was the largest such orgy of rape and murder in Europe since i don't know, the Vandal conquest of Rome or something.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Nov 2009, 17:36
Pioneer
Post 19 Apr 2014, 19:49
Loz wrote:
It's just that rapes committed by Americans pale in comparison with the number of those done by the Red Army.

How do you know?


Quote:
Also cut this "anti-Russian propaganda" crap.
If Soviet soldiers didn't behave like animals released from a leash there wouldn't be such talk about rapes in Germany.

You are still repeating that propaganda, which was started by the Nazis...


Quote:
Yugoslav Army made official complaints to Moscow about the arrogant, rude and uncomradely behavior of Soviet troops. The English advisers for example had much more respect towards the Yugoslavs. Make your own conclusions from that.

You are repeating what Djilas wrote. The English officers in Yugoslavia did not see real war, so the comparison is incorrect.
Also, Djilas mentions only 121 cases of rape. There were hundreds of thousands of Soviet soldiers and officers in Yugoslavia...


Quote:
Well those rapes did happen on an unprecedented scale as hundreds of thousands were raped, i think it was the largest such orgy of rape and murder in Europe since i don't know, the Vandal conquest of Rome or something.

How do you know this, especially considering that you said that you did not read any books about the topic?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Oct 2004, 15:15
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Politburo
Post 20 Apr 2014, 00:28
Mabool wrote:
Well maybe there would have been less rapes if the Red Army had conducted revolution together with the population instead of acting like just another nasty invader. But you couldn't expect that from an army that had seen the reintrodcution of military discipline, the abolishment of soldiers' soviets and democratic structures, and a huge inflation in ranks and medals over the previous ten to fifteen years.


Most of these measures courtesy of Leon Trotsky, if memory serves me correctly. Stalinist regime, indeed. I'll never have it said that Col. Sanders contributed nothing at all.

Of course it was the same Stalinist regime that did actually drag all these "undigested peasant masses" out of backwardness and gave them the opportunity to develop culturally. Unfortunately, the genocidal war started by the fascists did not provide these undigested peasants much opportunity to discuss the fine arts with fanatical SS death squads, or with the settlers of the Lebensraum cleared by these squads.
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