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Soviet cogitations: 10
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 03 Oct 2009, 21:54
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 21 Oct 2009, 21:08
Serbian army and Soviet Red Army was on 20 october,1944 liberated Belgrade ! SLAVA HEROJIMA !
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Soviet cogitations: 4381
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 06 Nov 2009, 12:22
I think most of the raping and other crimes committed by the Red Army occurred due to the strategy the Soviets used of advancing using penal batallions as first line units. These men were inmates of Gulags sent to fight, soldiers convicted of desertion, POWs liberated by the Red Army. They underwent tremendous cruelty and uncertainty -forced to advance, often in the toughest areas of the front, to soften up the enemy prior to the army's advance. Turning back meant death. Often these men would be given a period of time (a day or two) where they would be given free reign to rape, loot, and pillage the areas liberated. To live as they did, with the feeling that death could take them at any moment, probably drove many of them mad, and to commit the barbaric acts they did on the people not only of Germany and collaborator countries, but of countries like Poland and Yugoslavia.

I think that most ordinary soldiers were not so apt to commit the acts that they've been accused of, and that their anger and denial in the face of Western accusations is understandable. I think more light should be shed on the terror and brutality-perpetuating machine that was the Soviet penal batallion system.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
Soviet cogitations: 2407
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Nov 2003, 13:17
Ideology: Other
Forum Commissar
Post 19 Dec 2009, 12:41
You do not rape anyone for whatever reason.
Loz
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Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 24 Dec 2009, 13:51
Why does this surprise anyone."War,war never changes".In war,soldiers rape.They always rape,and burn,and loot.Soviet peasant,in spite of stalinist propaganda,hasn't evolved much from the pre-revolutionary backward muzhik.Imagine someone coming from poverty and misery of 1930's kolkhoz to the world of (relative) richness and luxury.Raping foreign women is just a final act,"creme on the cake" to him.
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Soviet cogitations: 3553
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 17 Jul 2006, 00:10
Ideology: Other Leftist
Forum Commissar
Post 24 Dec 2009, 15:27
are you implying that they wouldnt rape or pillage if they would come from a richer area? like germany?
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Jugoslavija je bleda slika
premrzlega partizana
zato je njeno ljudstvo navajeno trpeti
zato je njeno ljudstvo pripravljeno umreti.

-Via Ofenziva

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Soviet cogitations: 2407
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Nov 2003, 13:17
Ideology: Other
Forum Commissar
Post 24 Dec 2009, 18:51
During the Soviet-Afghan war of the 1980s, the Mujahideen never raped any women. In nearly every instance, wherever a female Russian or Afghan Communist government official was captured, they were released. It was expressedly forbidden to rape or harass any woman.

This goes to show that rape during war was not unavoidable. Through discipline and self-control, as well as integrity, it is possible for soldiers to choose not to rape. If anyone believes raping is acceptable, they should ask themselves how they would feel if someone close to them suffered such a fate.
Loz
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Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 24 Dec 2009, 19:33
It's not just conflict of the poor and rich because poor in capitalist society mostly aspire to and accept the values of the burgeoise(or these are imposed on them,it doesn't matter now) but young soldiers from USSR,raised in Stalinist society for sure have been taught that they are the best country in the world,etc(check this lying stalinist poster: http://englishrussia.com/images/anti_usa/10.jpg) and when the've seen that what propaganda told them was a lie,when the've seen the luxury of Germany for example,the anger combined with personal losses resulted in these hideous acts.
BUT the Red army for sure didn't do such atrocities as Wehrmacht and SS have done.
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Soviet cogitations: 3553
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 17 Jul 2006, 00:10
Ideology: Other Leftist
Forum Commissar
Post 24 Dec 2009, 20:11
that's a very subjective opinion with little basis in the reality. if that was so then how come there were no defections or rebellions in the red army afterwards like in the french army after they returned from supporting american revolutionaries for example? also most of the rapes "committed" by the red army in germany were disproven later when german officers admitted stripping civilian victims of the red army.
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Jugoslavija je bleda slika
premrzlega partizana
zato je njeno ljudstvo navajeno trpeti
zato je njeno ljudstvo pripravljeno umreti.

-Via Ofenziva

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Soviet cogitations: 4381
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 24 Dec 2009, 22:35
Quote:
During the Soviet-Afghan war of the 1980s, the Mujahideen never raped any women. In nearly every instance, wherever a female Russian or Afghan Communist government official was captured, they were released. It was expressedly forbidden to rape or harass any woman.


Are you fragging kidding me? You're using that as historical evidence? One of the reasons the Soviets decided to send troops was that the Mujihideen was constantly killing civilian Soviet advisors, including women, starting in 1978. Most famous was the massacre at Harat in 1979, where up to a hundred advisors and their families were murdered. And that's not even mentioning the Afghan civilians, of whom perhaps hundreds of thousands were killed by the Mujihideen, which bombed schools and offices, poisoned wells, and killed anyone suspected of supporting the DRA regime. Women and girls were among the prime targets of such intimidation, because the idea of them being free and equal citizens was and is intolerable to Muslim fundamentalists. Jesus I can't believe there are people who would call the Mujihideen, who would rip out fingernails and mutilate the genitals of Soviet soldiers, a case of restraint and integrity.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
Loz
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Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 25 Dec 2009, 02:41
Quote:
that's a very subjective opinion with little basis in the reality. if that was so then how come there were no defections or rebellions in the red army afterwards like in the french army after they returned from supporting american revolutionaries for example? also most of the rapes "committed" by the red army in germany were disproven later when german officers admitted stripping civilian victims of the red army.


Comrade moris,it's just my personal opinion,a hypothesis which i used to try to "explain" the reasons which could incite some Red army soldiers to such crimes.And about the questions of defection:where could they defect to? Against whom could they rebel? You probably know that NKVD held the army firmly under it's iron grip(remember the '37 great army purge) and that not few soldiers themselves tasted the gulag even after they returned from german captivity(even though they fought as partisans there) If i remember,around a million of them were captured because of that.Any sign of rebellion or disobedience mostly meant death of captivity during Stalin,especially in the army.There are indications that soviet army commanders themselves allowed these raping to allow the soldiers to "blow themselves off".Check wikipedia.
Loz
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Soviet cogitations: 11879
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 25 Dec 2009, 02:45
Mujahideens were really cruel religious fanatics.It's not strange for islamic "jihad" warriors to behave in such a way against "infidels"(Turks impaling people on stakes for example in 16th century Croatia)
Shame that gorby didn't continue to support revolutionary afghan movement against those disgusting fundamentalists.
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Soviet cogitations: 3711
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Jul 2006, 04:49
Ideology: Juche
Old Bolshevik
Post 25 Dec 2009, 03:00
Quote:
Shame that gorby didn't continue to support revolutionary afghan movement against those disgusting fundamentalists.


IIRC, they were winning until Yeltsin cut off aid to the DRA.
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Soviet cogitations: 3553
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 17 Jul 2006, 00:10
Ideology: Other Leftist
Forum Commissar
Post 25 Dec 2009, 03:50
Quote:
Comrade moris,it's just my personal opinion,a hypothesis which i used to try to "explain" the reasons which could incite some Red army soldiers to such crimes.


personal opinion is not something you can verify, no?

Quote:
where could they defect to? Against whom could they rebel? You probably know that NKVD held the army firmly under it's iron grip(remember the '37 great army purge) and that not few soldiers themselves tasted the gulag even after they returned from german captivity(even though they fought as partisans there)


to the allies or to some neutral state. after all if those russian collaborators managed to escape to switzerland and liechensten, why not them as well? and besides, allies were amnestying all the nazis they found, why not do the same with few red army recruits. a few of them did defect after the war.

Quote:
Any sign of rebellion or disobedience mostly meant death of captivity during Stalin,especially in the army.There are indications that soviet army commanders themselves allowed these raping to allow the soldiers to "blow themselves off".Check wikipedia.


how is that so if stalin personally ordered to treat german population with respect? sure, a few individual commanders allowed it, but i believe they were court marshalled after the war for it. i mean, just look at the situation logically, stalin needed loyalty of eastern germans. perhaps he was a bit of a madman, but certainly not a fool.
and regarding wikipedia heh. i'm quite surprised you take that as a reliable source. if i remember there should be a rule here about citing wiki sources. on the other hand i suggest you to check wiki article about foiba "massacres" and compare them with what your historians say. i'm quite sure you will get the point why wiki is biased.
Image


Jugoslavija je bleda slika
premrzlega partizana
zato je njeno ljudstvo navajeno trpeti
zato je njeno ljudstvo pripravljeno umreti.

-Via Ofenziva

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Soviet cogitations: 2407
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Nov 2003, 13:17
Ideology: Other
Forum Commissar
Post 25 Dec 2009, 06:15
The Prophet Muhammad(s.a.w.) once came upon a wounded woman in war, one who had been killed. At this point he became angry and asked why she had to die. This woman was from among the enemy and from this point forward, the Muslims were not to kill women or children in war. Prisoners of war in Islam are to also be treated very well.

There was also another narration of the Prophet(s.a.w.), in which a mother brought her child who was afflicted with magic. At this point he began to cry and the mother asked him why he did so. How could a man who would cry at the sight of a child suffering ever sanction the murder or massacre as you just described?

I do not believe you were criticising Islam, however you must take into mind that not everyone follows the rules of war, including the Communists. There were apparently several incidents in which the Russians shot and killed Afghan families. One boy recounted how a Soviet soldier cut off his brother's ear with a bayonet. Another innocent man told of how he was about to be shot, at which point they recited the Kalimah. The man was spared, as he was not hit and pretended to remain dead until after the Russians left. That was a horrible war and too many Soviet sons were sacrificed for an unpopular and oppressive, reactionary Afghan DRA government.
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Soviet cogitations: 4381
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 25 Dec 2009, 19:15
Political Interest, I certainly wasn't intending to criticize Islam -it's a religion I have very much respect for. Islamic societies have contributed much to the development of the modern world, and the religion's values can mix well with the ideals of socialism (the social justice aspect in particular). Libya, Syria, and Egypt under Nasser and South Yemen, not to mention the USSR, are examples of countries where socialism and Islam have mixed successfully. It's the extremist Islamic fundamentalism practiced by many groups of Mujahideen that I can't stand, because of their brutality and their feudalistic worldview. I also agree with you that not everyone follows the rules of war. In the Soviet-Afgan war a total of 6410 war crime sentences were handed out to Soviet combatants up to 1985, including sentences for 714 murders (Henry Bradsher, "Afghanistan and the Soviet Union").

I must comment about your description of the DRA government. After the Saur Revolution the DRA was dominated by the radical Khalqi faction which through their radicalism and oppression destroyed any sympathy that Afghans had for the PDPA. Babrak Karmal of the Parcham faction, whom the Soviets installed after overthrowing Amin, was much more subdued in his goals and actions as president. Karmal attempted to improve relations with non-communists in many ways. In 1980 five non-Marxists were invited into his cabinet. Religious leaders arrested under Amin were released. Islam was made the official state religion. Dozens of new mosques were built, and clergy were paid by the state. The government sponsored Haj pilgrimages to Mecca. For private farmers the regime extended credit, increased payments for crops, and allowed the purchasing and selling of land (with some restrictions). By 1980 10,377 prisoners were released, and Karmal promised a new toned-down constitution with guarantees against arbitrary arrest and imprisonment. He also sought to return refugees to their homes by offering them credits from the state, jobs, and land. Karmal offered tribal and regional autonomy in exchange for support against the Mujahideen -by 1983 more than 900 villages switched to neutrality or support for the regime. In the meantime, the government distributed and subsidized foodstuffs, consumer goods, medicines, diesel generators, water pumps, farm machinery, construction materials, and built dams, bridges, roads, telephone lines. It also provided free health care and education (when possible). Initiatives to slow the pace of land reform contributed to the stabilization and growth of the Afghan economy, which grew to a respectable 4.5% in 1984. Soviet help also set up 250 projects in mining, industry and transport, which supported the development of foreign trade. By 1984, smaller numbers of people were leaving the country, and many people who fled to cities were beginning to return to their farmlands. By 1985 1.7 million children were in school, 40,000 in universities and colleges, and 650,000 adults in literacy courses. As PDPA membership grew from 18,000 in 1978 to 205,000 in 1988, the regime also created the National Fatherland Front, an agglomeration of various cultural, social, and religious groups, which managed to enroll nearly one million members by 1988. Trade unions (160,000 members by 1985), farmers councils (190,000), and pioneer organizations for children further grew support for the regime. Each national minority was given access to its own literature, radio, press, and schooling in its own language, which also grew the regime's respectability among these groups, which were afraid of being dominated by the Pashtuns.

It is unfortunate that Gorbachev didn't appreciate Karmal's slow, careful approach, and in 1986 he was replaced by Najibulla, who had been the head of the country's secret police. From what I've read he wasn't as subdued in his approach to governance, and this combined with the Soviet withdrawal of military support and the Russian withdrawal of oil supplies led the DRA to collapse.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
Soviet cogitations: 6887
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2007, 08:37
Unperson
Post 07 Jan 2010, 18:53
Quote:
The Prophet Muhammad(s.a.w.) once came upon a wounded woman in war, one who had been killed. At this point he became angry and asked why she had to die. This woman was from among the enemy and from this point forward, the Muslims were not to kill women or children in war. Prisoners of war in Islam are to also be treated very well.

There was also another narration of the Prophet(s.a.w.), in which a mother brought her child who was afflicted with magic. At this point he began to cry and the mother asked him why he did so. How could a man who would cry at the sight of a child suffering ever sanction the murder or massacre as you just described?

I do not believe you were criticising Islam, however you must take into mind that not everyone follows the rules of war, including the Communists. There were apparently several incidents in which the Russians shot and killed Afghan families. One boy recounted how a Soviet soldier cut off his brother's ear with a bayonet. Another innocent man told of how he was about to be shot, at which point they recited the Kalimah. The man was spared, as he was not hit and pretended to remain dead until after the Russians left. That was a horrible war and too many Soviet sons were sacrificed for an unpopular and oppressive, reactionary Afghan DRA government.


Kupredu is Kupredu.

Also troll is troll.


I'm serious. You entire reply is a giant NOU. You ignored his point and his evidence and continue to spout your own opinionated (and wrong) bullshit.


On a related note you do realize that the DRA was anything but reactionary. They were incredibly progressive. The real problem is that they were too progressive.
banistansig1
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Soviet cogitations: 3711
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Jul 2006, 04:49
Ideology: Juche
Old Bolshevik
Post 09 Jan 2010, 09:28
Quote:
Kupredu is Kupredu.


No, he is not. He is a member of Pofo; his IPs do not match those of Kupredu's.
Soviet cogitations: 6887
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Nov 2007, 08:37
Unperson
Post 09 Jan 2010, 09:44
Looks like Kupredu. Smells like Kupredu. Troll time.
banistansig1
Soviet cogitations: 10005
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 09 Jan 2010, 12:08
No. Kupredu never said he was a muslim.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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Soviet cogitations: 2510
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Feb 2004, 20:50
Party Bureaucrat
Post 09 Jan 2010, 12:32
Please stick to the topic.
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Ya Basta!
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