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Save Honor of Red Army

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Soviet cogitations: 10
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 03 Oct 2009, 21:54
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 10 Oct 2009, 13:16
In modern times I heard a loot bad things and lies about Red Army.
No one mentioned the morale of the Red Army and its honor and courage, while the Germans and traitors slowly rise in the national heroes.What you think about that?
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Soviet cogitations: 2510
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Feb 2004, 20:50
Party Bureaucrat
Post 10 Oct 2009, 17:10
I think that you need to give us examples of what you consider to be lies.

Where do Wehrmacht soldiers become 'heroes' other than in right-wing environments? You have to be more precise regarding the subject of discussion.
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Ya Basta!
Soviet cogitations: 10005
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 10 Oct 2009, 17:14
Well, lots of people go "Everybody is just ranting about the Wehrmacht, but look what the Red Army did! They raped two million German women!"

...whereas comparing the Wehrmacht genocide to rapes is absolutely insane. And evil. I don't mean to justify rapes at all, but considering how terribly the Germans behaved in the Soviet Union really dwarves any "Red Army atrocities" by comparison. Hell, I can really understand what a Red Army soldier must have felt when, after years of bloody battle, he was standing in front of a girl that belonged to the people that turned his country into living hell.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
Soviet cogitations: 10
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 03 Oct 2009, 21:54
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 10 Oct 2009, 17:38
In Serbia, as well as you, there are many neonacist organization, is currently in the process of rehabilitation traitors of Serbia, it seems that it is now in fashion, and the Red Army, and condemned to an accused of rape that does not exist, and we all know that the rape figures exaggerate, do not say that it was not but that they were in smaller numbers, but can not be compared with German crimes.A and you yourself know that the discipline of the Red Army was high, so it might not happen right? ??
Soviet cogitations: 10005
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 10 Oct 2009, 17:39
Look, it has happened. There's no point in trying to deny it. I'm just saying that - well, they still saved the world, so it really doesn't matter much.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
Soviet cogitations: 10
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 03 Oct 2009, 21:54
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 10 Oct 2009, 17:46
Today You can not find a lot of monuments of the Red Army, although it is a lot of killing soldier, and what we the people are????
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Soviet cogitations: 2510
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Feb 2004, 20:50
Party Bureaucrat
Post 10 Oct 2009, 18:12
Well you can't justify rape with anything. It can be explained by the the invasion and it's attrocities but I still think a soldier who rapes another human being is a primitive asshole who should be shot regardless of the victimes loyalities within the conflict.

Quote:
Hell, I can really understand what a Red Army soldier must have felt when, after years of bloody battle, he was standing in front of a girl that belonged to the people that turned his country into living hell.


Now that's insane. But like I said, such a man should not be allowed to remain among the living. Anyway, not every single soviet soldier wanted to avenge his dead family members and his destroyed village by raping innocent girls, do you understand them too?

---

Fact is that both the Wehrmacht and the Red Army have done horrible things. It is completely irrelevant who has done the most harm, considering the overall inhumanity of that conflict. Same goes for the US Army and the British Army. Thus comparing the degree of inhuman actions of whatever army in WW2 is not productive in any way and when I hear that someone wants to save the Red Army's 'honor'... well it gives me a headache. Honor in a military context is just a set of unwritten rules imposed by social education and drill so that young people are willing to give their lives away for nothing (most of the time).

I think that this matter originates most likely from the glorification of war itself. This combined with political views can lead to the need to determine which armed forces have done the most harm, thus determining the morally superior one. I understand that and everyone does it to a certain degree too but I ask myself what the point is.
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Ya Basta!
Soviet cogitations: 10005
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 10 Oct 2009, 18:17
Quote:
But like I said, such a man should not be allowed to remain among the living. Anyway, not every single soviet soldier wanted to avenge his dead family members and his destroyed village by raping innocent girls, do you understand them too?


Of course you're right. I meant something the lines of "nachvollziehen", not "nachempfinden". Ein Standpunkt, den ich nachvollziehen, aber nicht teilen kann. I guess I just wasn't really able to express the distinction in English.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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Soviet cogitations: 2510
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Feb 2004, 20:50
Party Bureaucrat
Post 10 Oct 2009, 18:29
Excellent. I was a little irritated there and sorry for being somewhat aggressive.

Quote:
In Serbia, as well as you, there are many neonacist organization


Ah, yeah the neo-nazis. Well they don't exactly have the reputation of using the scientific methode to come to historical conclusions or any other. If they are glorifying the Wehrmacht it would be wrong to do the same with the Red Army in reponse to that.
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Ya Basta!
Soviet cogitations: 10
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 03 Oct 2009, 21:54
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 11 Oct 2009, 10:13
I am only sad,becasue reputation of all Red Army is low because some criminals do crimes. Why nobody say anything about high discipline and moral of Red Army ?
Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 14 Oct 2009, 15:41
Quote:
whereas comparing the Wehrmacht genocide to rapes is absolutely insane.


Broadening genocide to Wehrmacht as whole is wrong. Over 15 million people served in German military, ranging from Wehrmacht to paramilitary (SS was not part of the Wehrmacht). There is no denying that crimes were committed by elements of the Wehrmacht, but broadly talking of military in whole as criminal is wrong - as wrong as talking of any military to that matter in whole.

Marshal Zhukov is someone who cannot be accused of defending crimes committed by elements of the German military, yet he wrote in his memoirs:

"I have never, and will never ever again face such a disciplined army, it doesn't matter from which way you see it. The German soldier was the best soldier during the Second World War."

Quote:
Fact is that both the Wehrmacht and the Red Army have done horrible things. It is completely irrelevant who has done the most harm, considering the overall inhumanity of that conflict.


Wise words. As an old history student, I was taught not to look at history trough goggles of ideology or "an eye for an eye" concept. History is not black and white. Both sides of World War II were involved in crimes: they happened, but neither are justified.
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Soviet cogitations: 1325
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 03 Sep 2009, 13:27
Party Member
Post 14 Oct 2009, 17:34
I kind of think that a lot of people are starting to see German soldiers as martyrs, in a sense. That they didn't necessarily agree with what was going on, but were too afraid to desert due to the consequences of that. People realize that there was a difference between a 'German soldier' and a 'Nazi soldier,' I think.

Whereas with a Red Army soldier, I'm not sure many of them were afraid of their government. I'm not saying that NONE were, and I'm sure there were even a few Nazi-sympathizers within the ranks (because there are always a few bad eggs), but the general stereotype that I get, at least, from the Red Army, is that they were patriots who were obligated to defending their country.

+ I'm not claiming to know anything about either military. I don't, but I'm learning. This is simply an opinion of how the two differing armies are viewed today.
Soviet cogitations: 10005
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 14 Oct 2009, 17:38
Quote:
People realize that there was a difference between a 'German soldier' and a 'Nazi soldier,' I think.


No, there wasn't.
I'm German, I know what I'm talking about. Believe me, there wasn't. All non-nazis had deserted by the end of the war. The majority of POWs could have been executed in my opinion.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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Soviet cogitations: 1325
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 03 Sep 2009, 13:27
Party Member
Post 14 Oct 2009, 17:55
You don't believe that every German soldier believed in the racist crap that Hitler spouted, do you? That's what I mean, that not all of the German soldiers were racist fascists.

Just like the American army now. I've mentioned it before, but I know plenty of people who join the military simply for the benefits, not for the cause. Like how I wanted to join the National Guard just to get my school paid for. :/
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Soviet cogitations: 865
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Jan 2007, 06:42
Komsomol
Post 14 Oct 2009, 19:35
Quote:
Well you can't justify rape with anything. It can be explained by the the invasion and it's attrocities but I still think a soldier who rapes another human being is a primitive asshole who should be shot regardless of the victimes loyalities within the conflict.


You can justify rape; in fact, you can justify pretty much anything. The only point of contest arises in disparities in our accepted moral values. And the only thing that really matters is whether or not it hinders a strategic objective.

Given that the Red Army liberated Germany from the Hitlerite regime all by itself, and were not militarily or politically in a position to lose much in the event that a few soldiers satisfied their aggresive lust at the expense of some German women, then who cares? C'est la vie - to the victors go the spoils.

Not to mention, most of the accusations were politically motivated and encouraged by the Western powers to mitigate and undermine Soviet influence in occupied Germany following the cessation of hostilities.
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Soviet cogitations: 495
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 03 Mar 2008, 02:36
Komsomol
Post 14 Oct 2009, 23:16
Quote:
a few soldiers satisfied their aggresive lust at the expense of some German women, then who cares? C'est la vie - to the victors go the spoils

Come on, Beso, you honestly have no compassion for the innocent women?
Soviet cogitations: 10005
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 14 Oct 2009, 23:20
Any sane person would have much more compassion with the 20 million Soviet victims.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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Soviet cogitations: 865
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Jan 2007, 06:42
Komsomol
Post 14 Oct 2009, 23:25
Quote:
Any sane person would have much more compassion with the 20 million Soviet victims.


I'm in agreement with Mabool here. I find it difficult to feel sorry for German rape victims after the countless atrocities committed against innocent Soviet men, women and children at the hands of the Einsatzgruppen.

Besides, for the most part the Soviet Red Army demonstrated remarkable discipline and self-restraint when marching into Berlin in regards to the civilian population.
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Soviet cogitations: 10
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 03 Oct 2009, 21:54
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 15 Oct 2009, 18:42
Please,RED ARMY is most disciplied army,maybe it was revenge on german people,but we dont must blame all Red Army. They will never win,if they are not exelent army.They have a high moral and I think that they are heroes,dont forgot ,Red Army is liberated my country like yours.
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Soviet cogitations: 3033
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Nov 2004, 20:06
Party Bureaucrat
Post 19 Oct 2009, 22:51
I find it hard to not feel sorry for both the Soviets and any rape victims. Of course, there are other sides to this. Say, if the word of an entire village getting raped tremendously lowers the morale of a squad or a battalion, it may be justified. Of course, this is also extreme degrading and should never ever be used.
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