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What if: Argentina and Brazil join Axis in June 1940

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 May 2005, 13:28
Party Bureaucrat
Post 07 Sep 2006, 18:33
That would use huge amounts of oil, it wouldn't been worth the trips length. And anyways what chanses would germans got against USA if they couldn't win Brits?
-With solidarity, FC

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Aug 2006, 17:42
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Post 07 Sep 2006, 19:45
Quote:
I am still not sure that Argentina and Brazil would be able to hit anything worthwhile in the US.


and as I stated earlier, if they used brazil to stage a takeover of the Antillies to make air bases that could reach into the US...

the german planes is a good suggestion.....

ahhh.. it's a lot of variables...
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
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Post 07 Sep 2006, 20:12
Quote:
German bombers could have reached the United States from Germany (or was it France?). Concentrate on the small strips on the American east coast and the US is paralyzed (9/11 x 1000).


Bombers such as? The material (the metal) to make high altitude bombers (giving it the distance) was scarce in Germany (and the ablility to import it). Another reason it would be next to impossible is that Germany had their hands full in Europe. And to say the US would be paralyzed by having on a small section conquered by Germany, doesn't even make sense. As the German invasion of the USSR would prove, countries with deep interiors are hard to attack. Another largely unknown fact is that there are these little things stationed along the US coast:

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Quote:
and as I stated earlier, if they used brazil to stage a takeover of the Antillies to make air bases that could reach into the US...


wow, I completely missed that part.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Aug 2004, 20:49
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Embalmed
Post 07 Sep 2006, 20:27
Nothing would have happened at all. Brazil mobilised only about 500 troops to help in Europe, why would joining the axis change anything?

Their navies would have been flattened by the British, nay, ignored.
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"Phil Spector is haunting Europe" -Dr. Karl H. Marx
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Aug 2006, 17:42
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Post 07 Sep 2006, 20:35
Quote:
Nothing would have happened at all


the speculation is how brazil could have been a stage for western hemispherical invasion moreso than committing troops to the european theatre.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 07 Sep 2006, 21:23
Quote:
Also most Japanese aircraft had a range of just under 2,000 miles.


Japanese wouldn't naturally be bombing United States with fighter bombers or "light stuff", they would use real bombers. The basic Japanese bomber, the G4M had a range of nearly 5000km (roughly 3000 miles).

Quote:
Why Japanese aircraft? German bombers could have reached the United States from Germany (or was it France?).


You are a bit mistaken. Germand did have bombers capable of reaching East Coast cities and still having enough fuel to make it back to Europe, but none of these degins were ready in 1940.

Quote:
they couldn't win Brits


"Did not win" is not the same as "did not have a chance to win".

Quote:
Bombers such as?


Junkers Ju 390.

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Another reason it would be next to impossible is that Germany had their hands full in Europe.


Germany did not have a land front with anyone in 1940. Yes, the Luftwaffe would have its hands tied with Britain for the time being (1940 at least), but the Kriegsmarine could support Brazil and Argentina with U-boats and raiders.

Quote:
Their navies would have been flattened by the British, nay, ignored.


The Royal Navy was large, yes, but it could not be stationed everywhere at the same time. The navy was divided into several fleets (Far East Group, Mediterranean Fleet and so on). The British could not simply send their entire navy to South American waters with Churchill saying "Ok guys, let's crush those Latinos" because this would leave areas vurneable to Germans and Italians. They could reinforce their naval units in South Atlantic.

By the way, the British could not simply ignore the Brazilian and Argentinian navies, because this would leave their South Atlantic convoys vurneable to them. Both navies had two battleships, a number of cruisers and much more minor warships (destroyers, submarines ect).
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
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Post 08 Sep 2006, 02:03
Quote:
Japanese wouldn't naturally be bombing United States with fighter bombers or "light stuff", they would use real bombers. The basic Japanese bomber, the G4M had a range of nearly 5000km (roughly 3000 miles).


Fair enough.

Quote:
Junkers Ju 390.


Well they were never really massed produced because they were "too expensive and ambitious" (wiki).

Quote:
Germany did not have a land front with anyone in 1940. Yes, the Luftwaffe would have its hands tied with Britain for the time being (1940 at least), but the Kriegsmarine could support Brazil and Argentina with U-boats and raiders.


Kinda random question, the Junkers Ju 390, if they tried to cross the Atlantic, wouldn't British radar pick them up?
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 08 Sep 2006, 03:20
Quote:
Well they were never really massed produced because they were "too expensive and ambitious" (wiki).


That was not the reason nor was the Junkers Ju 390 only German bomber capable of such performance.

Quote:
if they tried to cross the Atlantic, wouldn't British radar pick them up?


No. Radars were not the things we know today. Germans bombers would have to fly close to British mainland to be discovered.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
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Post 08 Sep 2006, 16:37
Quote:
That was not the reason nor was the Junkers Ju 390 only German bomber capable of such performance.


The Messerschmitt Me 264 was never produced.
Only 276 Focke-Wulf Fw 200 and that was mainly for reconnaissance.
The Focke-Wulf Fw 300 and 400 was never produced (I think).
Prodcution was canceled for the Junkers Ju 390.

And if not for expense, what was it? Also it was never proven that these aircraft could hit New York with a full payload or just "the bomb."

Quote:
No. Radars were not the things we know today. Germans bombers would have to fly close to British mainland to be discovered.


That's what I figured.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 08 Sep 2006, 20:57
Quote:
And if not for expense, what was it?


War situation. The designs were late war.

Quote:
it was never proven that these aircraft could hit New York with a full payload or just "the bomb."


I find this most confusing, since the German designers would naturally include the payload to their plans.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 Jun 2006, 02:14
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Post 09 Sep 2006, 05:23
I really don't see the point in this speculation, since Brazil and Argentina were not willing nor in conditions to enter any kind of war. They had too many economic interests with both sides (specially Argentina) and were too busy with internal problems.


"Where Argentina goes, Latin America will go".
Leonid Brezhnev

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Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 09 Sep 2006, 09:55
Quote:
Brazil and Argentina were not willing nor in conditions to enter any kind of war.


This is what we see differently, my friend.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
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Post 09 Sep 2006, 18:14
Quote:
War situation. The designs were late war.


Agreed.

Quote:
They had too many economic interests with both sides (specially Argentina) and were too busy with internal problems.


Your history in that is probably better in that area than mine, but war (although I don't agree with what I'm about to say) is a good way to distract people from economic problems at home. Look at Revolutionary France in the late 18th century.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 Jun 2006, 02:14
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Politburo
Post 09 Sep 2006, 20:48
Of course, war is a good way to distact people of internal affairs. That's why Argentina entered into the Malvinas by 1982. But that's another story...

I don't know much about brazilian history (or at least not as much as I would like) but even though Vargas' Estado Novo was modelled after the corporativist governmet of Italy and he was personally close to Hitler and Mussollini, Brazil had a special economic relation with the USA since the early 1900's. It was the Baron of Rio Branco who designed the brazilian foreign policy to be closer to the USA than to Europe (maybe he foresaw the decline of the british empire and the rise of the USA).
On the other hand, Peron was a different thing. Argentina didn't have a special relation with the USA, but had a extremely close economical relation to Great Britain. Until the 30's, Argentina received more english investments than Canada or Australia. We governed ourselves in their favour, so we were cheaper than a colony....
Argentina had an army modelled and trained by german officers, while our navy behold the British Royal Navy as a model. A big part of our population were inmigrants, and many came from Germany during the 20's. But, most of our exports went to Great Britain and the USA.
So, Brazil and Argentina reacted in different ways.
Even though Vargas simpithized with the Axis, the economic pressure was too high to ignore. So, he declared the war to them and sided with the Allies as soon as the USA asked. He even sent troops.
The conservative govenrments, of the late 30's and early 40's, and 1943 militar government (where Peron was vice-president and minister) declared Argentina's neutrality. Not only because of the special economic relation with Great Britain and the economic, social and cultural relation with the Reich, but it was the default argentinian position. Argentina had also been neutral during WWI.
Peron was an anticommunist on internal policies. He was afraid of a communist revolution that would bled the people out. After all, he was the first argentinian president to establish diplomatic relations with the USSR. But that was to enforce a Third Way policy.. but again.. that's another story...


"Where Argentina goes, Latin America will go".
Leonid Brezhnev

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Aug 2006, 17:42
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Post 10 Sep 2006, 06:32
Quote:
I really don't see the point in this speculation, since Brazil and Argentina were not willing nor in conditions to enter any kind of war. They had too many economic interests with both sides (specially Argentina) and were too busy with internal problems.


the whole beauty of Intentionla Speculation such as this is:


the word----> IF <-----

this is the creative licsense that allows us to in fact speculate. we know that there were not enough circumstances for the argentines to enter the war. the speculation is how ------> IF <------ they had, how may it have effected the outcome.
Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 16 Oct 2006, 23:57
Quote:
the word----> IF <-----


Exactly.
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