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Italians in WWII

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Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 01 Apr 2005, 17:41
As ComradeDTAII said...

Your story is filled with a 52 week hole my friend...


Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 01 Apr 2005, 18:08
"Everyone has the jitters, seeing objects swimming about at night, and hearing movements on ships' bottoms. It must stop!" - Admiral Sir Andrew Cunningham, Commander in Chief of Britain's Mediterranean Fleet -

Cunningham is talking about Italian frogmans.

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By the end of WWII, Italian frogmans had sunk or severely damaged 217530 tons of Allied ships.

From 1941, the British were nervously on guard of a potential surprise attack by the most effective and devastating branch of the Italian military of World War Two; the frogmans.

The Italian frogmans used manned torpedoes as deadly weapons agaisn't Allied ships.

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Manned torpedo.

Italian frogmans were not only deadly, but also very ingenious in their methods of attack. Known as the Floating Trojan Horse of Gibraltar, Italian frogmans used an imaginative method of destroying enemy ships in Gibraltar.

Gibraltar was very tempting to the Italians for their safe shelter of British warships and allied merchant shipping. The Italian frogmans originally used a Spanish villa that was located about two miles from Gibraltar as a base. It was owned by an Italian officer married to a Spanish woman.

The frogmans would stay inside the villa until night, and then they would sneak out into the harbor and attack unsuspecting British. But this proved very difficult. The harbor was very well protected by netting, patrol boats and search lights. Because of this, the frogmans decided to use a battered Italian merchant ship Olterra, that docked across the bay of Gibraltar as a new base.

The crew was secretly replaced with divers and technicians. A workshop to house, build and maintain human torpedos was build. A door was cut six feet below the surface to allow these two-man human torpedos to come and go undetected. Replacement torpedos were shipped from Italy disguised as boiler tubes.

The British never found out where the frogmans had come and gone.

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Last edited by Carius on 26 Mar 2006, 13:02, edited 2 times in total.
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Soviet cogitations: 10762
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
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Post 04 Apr 2005, 00:56
Quote:
Italy was not a puppet of Germany.


Yes they were.

The only reason the Italians used Frogmen was because they only had 117 submarines.

What I meant by "Italy can't even be called fascists" was that they were just a puppet state of Germany and they could not do anything without Hitlers consent so it did not matter what goverment Italy had.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 04 Apr 2005, 09:36
Quote:
Yes they were.


Quote:
What I meant by "Italy can't even be called fascists" was that they were just a puppet state of Germany and they could not do anything without Hitlers consent so it did not matter what goverment Italy had.


....

Quote:
The only reason the Italians used Frogmen was....


Only 117 submarines? That is a lot of submarines. Italians used frogmans as special navy unit, not because they lacked submarines, which they didn't.
Last edited by Carius on 26 Mar 2006, 13:04, edited 3 times in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
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Post 04 Apr 2005, 17:10
Quote:
Italians used frogmans as special navy unit, not because they lacked submarines, which they didnt.


The allies had 54 subs in the Mediterranean (Russian, French, British) Italy had 106, yet still Italy needed Germanys help to defeat a navy (in subs) half their size.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 04 Apr 2005, 17:35
Quote:
The allies had 54 subs in the Mediterranean (Russian, French, British) Italy had 106, yet still Italy needed Germanys help to defeat a navy (in subs) half their size.


WHAT are you talking about? Soviets didn't have submarines in Mediterranean.

Just to let you know, Italians didn't ask Germans to send U-boats in Mediterranean. They did that from their own will.
Last edited by Carius on 26 Mar 2006, 13:05, edited 2 times in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
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Post 04 Apr 2005, 17:42
Beowulf wrote:
Quote:
WHAT are you talking about? Soviets didnt have submarines in the Mediterranean.


8 Russian subs in the Black Sea (which this website included as Mediterranean)
http://www.naval-history.net/WW2CampaignsStartMed.htm
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 04 Apr 2005, 17:57
.........

Quote:
Russian subs in the Black Sea (which this website included as Mediterranean)


Yes, that website. Soviet Black Sea Fleet didnt take part on actions in Mediterranean. Black Sea and Mediterranean Sea are two different things.
Last edited by Carius on 26 Mar 2006, 13:06, edited 2 times in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
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Post 05 Apr 2005, 01:08
Fine, only 46 allied subs that Italy could not deal with.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 05 Apr 2005, 07:31
No!

Did you read what I posted?

Quote:
Just to let you know, Italians didn't ask Germans to send U-boats in Mediterranean. They did that from their own will.
Last edited by Carius on 05 Nov 2005, 16:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
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Post 05 Apr 2005, 14:43
An important battle that has been skipped was the Italians failure to take Malta.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 05 Apr 2005, 15:23
Quote:
An important battle that has been skipped was the Italians failure to take Malta.


What are you talking about? Italians didnt even try to take Malta.
Last edited by Carius on 26 Mar 2006, 13:08, edited 2 times in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Sep 2004, 03:25
Komsomol
Post 06 Apr 2005, 01:18
I respect the italian forces. Ihear plenty of stories of brave italian soldiers. I even have a picture in a book somewhere, where a italian strapped a bomb on himself and jumped under a british tank.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
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Post 06 Apr 2005, 02:28
Beowulf wrote:
Quote:
Italians didnt even try to take Malta.


I did not mean a naval invasion I meant bombing and air raids (which were mainly German).

Crazy Ivan wrote:
Quote:
I respect the italian forces. Ihear plenty of stories of brave italian soldiers. I even have a picture in a book somewhere, where a italian strapped a bomb on himself and jumped under a british tank.


Also just adding that any army can be full of brave soliders and still preform poorly.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 06 Apr 2005, 10:19
Bombing is not the same thing as invasion. And you are ignoring all other Italian campaings.
Last edited by Carius on 26 Mar 2006, 13:11, edited 2 times in total.
Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 06 Jun 2005, 00:02
Image


Italian cavalry on Eastern Front.

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Italians advancing trough cornfield in Ukraine.

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Italians on battle stations in Stalino.

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Italians manning 47mm gun, somewhere on Eastern Front.

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Italian 380mm Ansaldo railway gun. Italian Littorio-class battleships were armed with these guns.

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Italian tankers posing in front of their Semevente da 90/53 tank destroyer.
Soviet cogitations: 313
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Jul 2004, 04:43
Komsomol
Post 16 Jun 2005, 19:10
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75/18 modello 1935


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Italian Troops in Russia.
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"None are more hopelessly enslaved than
those who falsely believe they are free."
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 16 Jun 2005, 19:31
Nice photos.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 17 Jun 2005, 00:19
Pioneer
Post 17 Jun 2005, 01:13
Ah, I love those photos
I think I should add one interesting question to this discussion, would Germany have been able to wage war without it's allies?

Personally I would say No and Yes. The problems in North Africa would perhaps not evolve (If Italy stayed Neutral of course) and many other things both positive and negative things wouldn't have happened BUT, I do not believe that Germany would have been able to attack Soviet Union alone and crush it.

Or could they? Perhaps if Adolf Hitler would have left the command to his generals but not even then the german wehrmacht would have the possibility to crush the red army. Germany had one big problem - it's manpower...
By powerful artillery fire, air strikes and a wave of attacking tanks we're supposed to swiftly crush the enemy. -G.K. Zhukov
Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 17 Jun 2005, 01:15
Quote:
would Germany have been able to wage war without it's allies?


Yes, but Germany would require at least acces to Romania. Hungary and Finland, so that troops could be deployed to those countries.

Quote:
Germany had one big problem - it's manpower...


Germany had population of some 80 million, which is not little.
Last edited by Carius on 05 Nov 2005, 16:46, edited 1 time in total.
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