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Italians in WWII

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Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 19 Mar 2005, 16:50
There are many people who see Italians as cowards who always ran from the battle, but those people are wrong.

Most of the stuff concerning italians role in WWII is related to 1940-1941 campaigns in North Africa and Greece, but ignores all the rest. So, lets take a better look at italian campaigns

On June 1941, Benito Mussolini decided to send 60000 Italian troops in Ukraine to take part in Operatio Barbarosa. Under the command of General Giovanni Messe these troops performed well, advancing deep into Soviet Union. By July 1942, the number had grown to 200000.

On August 1942, the Soviet forces near Serafimovich launched a counterattack against the Italians holding the Don River. The Italians were outnumbered but they managed to hold their grounds. The Soviet tanks were stopped with molotov cocktails.

On August 24th, with the victory near Serafimovich, Italian Savoia Cavalry made up of 600 mounted soldiers launched a counterattack on the Isbuschenski steppe. The Soviets forces consisted of 2000 men with mortar and artillery support. One Italian squadron attacked head on, while the other came behind the enemy lines armed only with sabres. They caught the Soviets completely by surprise and overran their positions. The Soviets lost two battalions in one of the last cavalry attacks of WWII.

During the Soviet operation which eventually led to the German VI. Army being encircled, to the north of the Soviet breakthrough, the Italian Alpini Corps held firm against Soviets attacks--the Alpini were the best units in the Italian Army--but it didn't matter, because subsequently the Soviets broke through the Hungarian lines to the north.

The Alpini Corps, then, was surrounded because of breakthroughs to the north and south. It fought its way out as a coherent fighting unit in a spectacular display of bravery under adverse conditions. Some units, like the Cuneense Division, sacrificed themselves so that their comrades could break through and escape. It had many similarities to the retreat of the USMC at Chosin Reservoir in the Korean War. Although it suffered horrible casualties from the weather and the Soviets, the Alpini Corps did in fact break through the encirclement still in military order--though it was wrecked as a fighting unit and had to be withdrawn.

Some of the feats of the Alpini Corps, especially the Tridentina Division, were really incredible, as were those of some of the attached units, like the Monte Cervino Ski Battalion and the XXX Assault Engineer Battalion. The men took on T-34 tanks with nothing but Molotov cocktails and mines.

Image


Last Italian Alpini breaking trough the Soviet lines.

Also, in North Africa, after the initial failures Italian units started to perform well. For example, the Folgore airborne division fought bravely in the Second Battle of El Alamein.
Last edited by Carius on 23 Feb 2007, 14:47, edited 13 times in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 05 Feb 2005, 05:12
Unperson
Post 19 Mar 2005, 19:28
Yes, very brave and noble Italians....

oh, wait!

http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/Prelude05.html

http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/india/it ... ia1935.htm

Yes they were very brave...Barborossa, North Africa, even Ethiopia.
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Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 19 Mar 2005, 19:46
Yes? What about those links? War agains't Ethiopia was three years before WWII.
Last edited by Carius on 26 Mar 2006, 12:51, edited 2 times in total.
Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
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Post 22 Mar 2005, 22:41
General Giovanni Messe, commander of Italian troops on Eastern Front.

Image


Members of Italian Red Cross on Eastern Front.

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Lucky Italian Alpine trooper on Eastern Front. ( See where the bullet hit )

Image
Last edited by Carius on 05 Nov 2005, 16:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Post 29 Mar 2005, 15:58
Italy preformed rather poorly in WW2.

Their campains in Greece, North Africa, Ethiopia, Russia, and defending their country when the Allies invaded was rather pathetic.

In Greece they were badly mauled and Germany had to save them.

In North Africa they again preformed badly. The only reason they got so far was because of a German, Rommel.

Ethiopia was a joke. They bombed native from the sky when some of the Ethiopians were fighting with spears and shields. But lets not forget about Ethiopia's 1 plane, even though it was a clunky relic from the WW1.

I am not as familar with Italy in Russia. I know they sent troops but the sucsess was because of Germany. Italy didn't even play a significant role. It is possible that they did preform well at times against Russia.

When the Allies invaded Italy from Sicily and the South the main defence was German. Italy would have surrendered earlier but Germany kept them in the war.

The point is that Italy did bad in WW2.

Here is a quote between a German and English diplomat (sorry it is not exact:

German- You do realize if their is a war Italy will be on our side.

Engilsh- Of course. It is only fair. We had them last time.

Another quote from a French general before WW2:

"If Italy stays neutral I will need 5 divisions to guard our border. If the join the Axis I will need 10 divisions to deal with them. If they become our ally I will need 15 divisions to help them."

Sorry Beowulf but Italy did not to well in WW2.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
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Post 29 Mar 2005, 21:25
Quote:
Ethiopians were fighting with spears and shields.


No, they were not. And the invasion of Ethiopia was hardly " pathetic ".

Quote:
I am not as familar with Italy in Russia. I know they sent troops but the sucsess was because of Germany. Italy didn't even play a significant role. It is possible that they did preform well at times against Russia.


Italians gained their succes on Eastern Front pretty much alone, not with Germans helping them constantly.
Last edited by Carius on 26 Mar 2006, 12:52, edited 8 times in total.
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Post 30 Mar 2005, 02:44
Beowulf:

Quote:
No, they didnt.


Yes some Ethiopians were.

Quote:
nd the invasion of Ethiopia was hardly " pathetic ".


It was pathetic because Italy bombed a country with 1 plane. It was pathetic that they subdued a country that was not modernizied with a modernized army.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 30 Mar 2005, 13:46
Do you realise that from Italy you can attack Austria, which at the time was part of Germany?

Germans couldn't let that happen.

Quote:
Yes some Ethiopians were.


I was talking about Ethiopian army, which didn't use spears agains't Italians. If militia used spears it is a different thing.
Last edited by Carius on 26 Mar 2006, 12:55, edited 3 times in total.
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Post 31 Mar 2005, 18:17
Beowulf wrote:
Quote:
Do you realise that from Italy you can attack Austria, which at the time was part of Germany?


Italy would not join the war until Hitler defeated Austria. Than they joined when France was half dead.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 31 Mar 2005, 18:31
Quote:
Italy would not join the war until Hitler defeated Austria.


I said; .Do you realise that from Italy you can attack Austria, which at the time was part of Germany?

Hitler defeated Austria...What are you talking about? Austria had been part of Germany since 1938, after being peacefully annexed.
If Germans wouldn't do anything, Allied troops would be rolling to Austria and Germany.
Last edited by Carius on 26 Mar 2006, 12:56, edited 2 times in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
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Post 31 Mar 2005, 18:32
By the way, this thread is going off topic.
Last edited by Carius on 26 Mar 2006, 12:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Post 31 Mar 2005, 18:33
that is because no one wants to defend or glorify fascists...
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
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Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
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Post 31 Mar 2005, 18:37
This is NEUTRAL THREAD.

Who has glorified fascism? Hmm?


Jees...
Last edited by Carius on 31 Mar 2005, 18:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Post 31 Mar 2005, 18:43
Beowulf wrote:
Quote:
peacefully annexed


If you call invading a country that does not put up any resistance "peacefully annexed" than yes.

Kirov wrote:
Quote:
that is because no one wants to defend or glorify fascists...


Italy can't even be called fascists. They were just a puppet of Germany.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 31 Mar 2005, 18:47
Quote:
Italy can't even be called fascists. They were just a puppet of Germany.


Nonsense.

Italy was fascist country.

And as I said... OFF TOPIC.
Last edited by Carius on 23 Sep 2005, 17:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 05 Feb 2005, 05:12
Unperson
Post 31 Mar 2005, 23:01
Italy was fascist before Germany, hell it invented fascism, in the sense of fascism you are thinking of...

Quote:
If you call invading a country that does not put up any resistance "peacefully annexed" than yes.


well? It was peaceful, and it was an annexation.

It was called the Anschluss of Austria, read up on it!

Quote:
that is because no one wants to defend or glorify fascists...


He is not glorifying fascists, he is glorifying heroes, all countries had them. They are not ideoligical fighters, they are just fighting for their country.

That is called prejudice.

Quote:
Italy would not join the war until Hitler defeated Austria. Than they joined when France was half dead.


Alright if Anschluss occured in 1938, and war began in 1939, who in hell was killing France?

Your story is filled with a 52 week hole my friend....

Italy joined when Germany began the Schlieffen Plan as Mussolini was impressed with German resiliance.

Sincerely
ComradeDTAII
Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 01 Apr 2005, 06:24
Quote:
Italy was fascist before Germany


Germany was anational socialist country, not fascist. There is a difference between fascism and national socialism.
Last edited by Carius on 26 Mar 2006, 13:01, edited 2 times in total.
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Post 01 Apr 2005, 15:48
Beowulf wrote:
Quote:
Italy was fascist country.


I never said it was not fascist, it was. I was saying that they were a puppet state of Germany.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
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Post 01 Apr 2005, 16:13
KurtSurge wrote:
Quote:
Was it a suprise that Italy had a weak army? Italy has not had a strong army since the collapse of Rome many centuries ago.


Isn't that what Mussolini wanted? A new Mediterranean (Roman) empire. Still even if he did manage to create that empire it would be Hitler's.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 01 Apr 2005, 17:31
Italy was not a puppet of Germany.

Quote:
I never said it was not fascist,


Ouh, but you did.

Quote:
Italy can't even be called fascists


Quote:
Still even if he did manage to create that empire it would be Hitler's.


Wrong again.
Last edited by Carius on 26 Mar 2006, 13:02, edited 3 times in total.
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