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What if: Yugoslavia Axis country

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Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 08 May 2005, 09:58
Yugoslavia had decent sized army, which would be nice addition to Axis forces on Eastern Front.

Yugoslavian Navy could help on operations in Mediterranean.
Last edited by Carius on 28 Mar 2006, 13:52, edited 1 time in total.
Soviet cogitations: 347
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2004, 13:24
Komsomol
Post 09 May 2005, 10:28
I don't believe Serbian army will ever fight with Russia. Even if Yugoslavia was part of the Axis it would never have sent troops on Eastern front (As Bulgaria did). War aginst Russia would have been extremely unpopular.

Quote:
Barbarossa would've begun one month earlier, and Yugoslavian troops would've participated. The Germans would also have had thirteen additional combat divisions available.

IT COULDN'T HAVE HAPPENNED.
It's clear you're quite unfamiliar what kind of people serbs are.
Not a single Serbian/Bulgarian soldier will enter battle against Russia.He will kill his commanders instead.
Last edited by Dzhigarov on 09 May 2005, 10:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 09 May 2005, 10:33
That is your opinion, and there are other regions in Yugoslavia. Croatian ect;
Soviet cogitations: 347
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2004, 13:24
Komsomol
Post 09 May 2005, 10:36
Croatians participated in SS divisions anyway, so it changes nothing
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Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 09 May 2005, 11:12
That is your opinion.
Soviet cogitations: 347
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2004, 13:24
Komsomol
Post 09 May 2005, 14:06
That is the truth
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Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 09 May 2005, 14:20
No, but your opinion.
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Soviet cogitations: 4177
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Sep 2004, 16:21
Politburo
Post 09 May 2005, 14:32
It's not just Dzhigarov's opinion, it's mine as well. There's just no way the Serbs would have gone to war against Russia in support of Germany, especially if Croatia was fighting for the Germans as well. As Dzhigarov said, if the troops had been given those orders, they would have mutinied and shot their own commanders. There has always been a Pan-Slavic alliance between Russia and the Slavic peoples of the Balkans; it's the reason why Russia got involved in World War I. It felt it had to defend Serbia against Austro-Hungarian aggression, no matter what the cost.
"Comrade Lenin left us a great legacy, and we fucкed it up." - Josef Stalin
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Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 09 May 2005, 14:48
Quote:
It felt it had to defend Serbia against Austro-Hungarian aggression


Serbs triggered WWI.

And as I said, Serbia was only part of Yugoslavia, not whole Yugoslavia.
Last edited by Carius on 28 Mar 2006, 13:50, edited 1 time in total.
Soviet cogitations: 347
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2004, 13:24
Komsomol
Post 09 May 2005, 15:08
What we should discuss is what would have happenned if Turkey didn't remain neutral but entered the war on Axis side. Turks are traditional enemy of Russia, and Turkish advance through the Caucasus would have engaged large part of the Red Army's resources.

Carius wrote:
Serbs triggered WW1

This is idiotic claim.
Serbs fulfilled 9 out of 10 parts of the Austro-Hungarian ultimatum trying to avoid the war. Great Power's desire for redispensation of the geopolitical influence was the real reason for WW1.[/quote]
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Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 09 May 2005, 16:42
Quote:

This is idiotic claim.


Actually, its not.

Bosnian Serb, Gavrilo Princip assassinated Archduke of Austria, Franz Ferdinand who was the heir of Austro-Hungarian throne and his wife, Countess Sophie. First World War was triggered by this assassination.
Soviet cogitations: 347
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2004, 13:24
Komsomol
Post 09 May 2005, 17:03


Lol - your history knowledge is SOOO deep

What an astonishing information


The Assassination was the ground for Austo-Hungaria to start the war, not the reason.. I doubt you make difference

Plus the assassination was not conducted by Serbian officer, but by "Young Bosnia" member, so Serbia can't be blamed.
After that Austro-Hungaria made ultimatum to Serbia consisting of 10 articles. Serbian government fulfiled 9 of them desperately trying to avoid the war.

I advice you to enrich your history knowledge,kid!
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Sep 2004, 16:21
Politburo
Post 09 May 2005, 17:08
I have to agree with Dzhigarov again. Austro-Hungary merely used the assassination of the Archduke as the pretext to go to war - they had been itching to attack Serbia for years. Russia came to the defence of their Slavic allies and Germany rushed to the defence of Austro-Hungary. The rest is history....
"Comrade Lenin left us a great legacy, and we fucкed it up." - Josef Stalin
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Oct 2004, 15:15
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Politburo
Post 09 May 2005, 18:37
Carius wrote:
Quote:

This is idiotic claim.


Actually, its not.

Bosnian Serb, Gavrilo Princip assassinated Archduke of Austria, Franz Ferdinand who was the heir of Austro-Hungarian throne and his wife, Countess Sophie. First World War was triggered by this assassination.

That was the direct spark to the war, but it was not the sole reason. If you think that everything in Europe was fine and dandy, and then suddenly Princip comes in, kills the Archduke, and poof, there's a world war, you need to recheck your history books.

Potemkin said it quite sufficiently; there had been tensions between the large imperialist powers for a long time, and certain powers were allied with one another. It's really a whole chain reaction that was caused by the alliances.

Russia was allied to France and England, and Austro-Hungary was allied to Germany and the Ottoman Empire, and Russia would also step in if Slavic "brother" people were hurt. So it can really be summed up in this chain reaction:

Princip kills Archduke.
Austro-Hungary declares war on Serbia.
Russia steps in.
France and England need to abide by their alliances, so they help Russia, same with Germany and Turkey, except they aid Austro-Hungary.

And there you have it, a continent at war.
Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 09 May 2005, 18:40
Hmmm, and people who use that many smileys amuse me.

Quote:
Plus the assassination was not conducted by Serbian officer


Did I say it was?

Quote:
I advice you to enrich your history knowledge,kid!


I advice you to watch your words. Calling other members kid is an insult.



Quote:
If you think that everything in Europe was fine and dandy, and then suddenly Princip comes in, kills the Archduke, and poof, there's a world war


Again, something that I didnt say.
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Soviet cogitations: 115
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Feb 2004, 06:36
Unperson
Post 10 May 2005, 02:56
Dzhigarov wrote:
I don't believe Serbian army will ever fight with Russia. Even if Yugoslavia was part of the Axis it would never have sent troops on Eastern front (As Bulgaria did). War aginst Russia would have been extremely unpopular.

I'm not familiar with the disposition of the Yugoslavian people, so I won't address this issue. I will say that the political class in most countries tends to be quite effective in duping the masses into fighting unnecessary wars. In Yugoslavia's case, this was prevented by a coup. Even had Yugoslavia simply remained neutral, it would have been beneficial. Barbarossa would've started earlier, and with an additional 13-20 divisions.

Dzhigarov wrote:
IT COULDN'T HAVE HAPPENNED.

Perhaps you are correct that Yugoslavia would not have participated in the conflict, but it still would've resulted in an earlier timetable and in additional German troops.

Dzhigarov wrote:
It's clear you're quite unfamiliar what kind of people serbs are.
Not a single Serbian/Bulgarian soldier will enter battle against Russia.He will kill his commanders instead.

I have full faith in the ability of politicians to motivate people to die in needless wars (initially). Also, Bulgaria was an Axis country, and participated heavily on the Eastern Front. Bulgaria had also been a Central Power, so I'm not sure why you say that Bulgarians would refuse to fight Russians. Especially since you're Bulgarian...

Dzhigarov wrote:
Croat nazis participated in SS divisions anyway, so it changes nothing

It changes quite a bit, for the simple reason that it would have freed German combat divisions.

Potemkin wrote:
It's not just Dzhigarov's opinion, it's mine as well. There's just no way the Serbs would have gone to war against Russia in support of Germany, especially if Croatia was fighting for the Germans as well.

Croatia and Serbia were both part of Yugoslavia.

Potemkin wrote:
As Dzhigarov said, if the troops had been given those orders, they would have mutinied and shot their own commanders. There has always been a Pan-Slavic alliance between Russia and the Slavic peoples of the Balkans; it's the reason why Russia got involved in World War I. It felt it had to defend Serbia against Austro-Hungarian aggression, no matter what the cost.

Pan-Slavism is a myth. Poles, Ruthenes, Bosnians, Herzegovines, Serbs, Croats, Bulgars, Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians, Montenegrins and many other groups are all Slavs. Many of these slavic groups fought under Austria against Russia, and with valor. Many also fought as soldiers in the Sultan's army against Russia. Poland has invaded Russia several times. Ukrainians hate Russia. Bulgaria was against Russia in both world wars. Serbs are probably very pro-Russian, due to the First World War, but I question just how long that loyalty stretches. It is not particularly difficult to send people off to war.
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Soviet cogitations: 347
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2004, 13:24
Komsomol
Post 10 May 2005, 07:43
Daovonnaex wrote:
Also, Bulgaria was an Axis country, and participated heavily on the Eastern Front


This sentence alone is enough to show your ignorance. Bulgaria sent not a single soldier on the Eastern front; Also unlike other states (like Croaia and Baltics) there were no Bulgarians in SS divisdions.

Quote:
Bulgaria had also been a Central Power, so I'm not sure why you say that Bulgarians would refuse to fight Russians.
Bulgaria was against Russia in both world wars

This is for another topic.
What you should know is that in both WW1 and WW2 Bulgaria was on the opposite side of it's local enemies. Serbia,Romania and Greece were part of the Entente,Bulgaria wanted it's territories back from them so it joined the Central Powers in WW1.Participation in WW2 was analogical. It has nothing with Russia and Bulgaria never declared war on Russia.
One more reason to join Germany in WW1,WW2 is that Bulgarian monarchs were indeed Germans...

Quote:
Many also fought as soldiers in the Sultan's army against Russia.


Idiot. There was NOT A SINGLE SLAV fighting in Sultan's army (except Bosnians maybe, I'm not sure about them) and I'm ready to put my head as a pledge for my words.
Non muslims (giaours) were forbidden to participate in Ottoman army (and all other state institutions); they were just slaves.

Another ignorant westener
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Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 10 May 2005, 09:59
No Bulgarian SS?

Waffen-Grenadier Regiment der SS. (bulgarisches Nr 1) The unit consisted of 500-600 Bulgarians who were willing to keep fighting with Germany when Bulgaria joined Allies in September 1944.
Last edited by Carius on 28 Mar 2006, 14:01, edited 1 time in total.
Soviet cogitations: 1
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 03 Jan 2006, 21:49
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 03 Jan 2006, 22:57
Yugoslavian goverment was cooperating with Germany and Italy. Under prince Paul Yugoslavia moved steadily away from France to Germany as early as Hitler promised to support goverment of premier Milan Stojadinovic. By 1937. Stojadinovic visited Mussolini developed his own squad of "Green Shirts" and adopted the Nazi salute.
Prince Paul saw Germany as only power able to mantain artificial state of Yugoslavia and he began secret negotiations with top Nazi officials in December 1939. He hoped that with German help he would deny crown to young Prince Peter. Yugoslavia joined Axis on March 24, 1941 - only member of the government who refused to sign the "Pact of Steel" joining the Axis was the Croatian minister, Vladko Macek (HSS - Croatian Peasant Party). After the signing Cvetkovic assured Hitler that Yugoslavia "...would be ready to cooperate with Germany in every way." In fact, Paul had been cooperating since 1939 with mass arrests of Jews, strict racial laws, and the prohibition of trade unions. By 1940, legislation had been passed limiting the types of businesses which Jews could own, direct, or work in and severely limiting educational access for Jews. A secret protocol was attached to the Axis pact which promised Yugoslavia access to the Aegean Sea at the expense of Greece in the New Order.

Military coupe...

March 26, 1941 Serbian generals Bora Mirkovic and Dusan Simonovic led british assisted coupe against Cvetkovic goverment. Anglo-American press went wilde with stories of uprising against Germans but... in the mythology is lost fact that the generals did not think Germany would invade and wanted to maintain good relations with the Germans. On March 30 the Yugoslav Foreign Minister made a formal statement to the German envoy that the new government respected the Axis pact and that Simovic was "devoted to the maintenance of good and friendly relations with its neighbors the German Reich and the Kingdom of Italy." Simovic believed that his close personal friendship with several top Nazis, especially Reichmarschall Goring, would save the day. His mistake led to a German invasion on April 6.

Defense of Yugoslavia...

Before seeing single German soldier Serbian-led army withdrew from Slovenia and Croatia (to defend Serbia) leaving Slovenians and Croats without supply and ammunition. Most Croatian soldiers simply went home. The Yugoslav military disintegrated at first sight of the Germans as 100 of 135 generals in the top-heavy Serbian officer corps surrendered during the first week. Belgrad was taken by a single platoon of Waffen-SS shock troops led by a second lieutenant on April 12. As General Simovic and his government fled the country with millions in gold, only the Croatian Peasant Party minister Vladko Macek stayed to share the fate of his people.

So you see Kingdom of Yugoslavia was not Soviet friend and things are not so black and white.
Deeds are better witnesses than men
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Soviet cogitations: 344
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 May 2005, 17:11
Komsomol
Post 27 Jan 2006, 23:55
The resistance in Yugoslavia was VERY strong, Yugoslavia was probably the only country which liberated itself from the Germans.
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