Soviet-Empire.com U.S.S.R. and communism historical discussion.
[ Active ]
[ Login ]
Log-in to remove these advertisements.

Lend-Lease Aid

POST REPLY
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 782
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 25 Nov 2004, 17:44
Unperson
Post 02 Feb 2005, 12:15
Nikita* wrote:
They were all US ships.




You should check the link what Whiskey posted.
Image
Soviet cogitations: 1791
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Dec 2004, 11:58
Party Member
Post 02 Feb 2005, 12:39
I did.

Do some research of the Soviet Fleet, during the time of the Second World War, they did not have sufficent amount of Merchant ships to do such a thing.

Obviously those links are wrong, I know for a fact the Soviet Union had an inadequate Merchant fleet during the Second world war.
Image
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 782
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 25 Nov 2004, 17:44
Unperson
Post 02 Feb 2005, 12:41
Nikita* wrote:
I did.

Do some research of the Soviet Fleet, during the time of the Second World War, they did not have sufficent amount of Merchant ships to do such a thing.

Obviously those links are wrong, I know for a fact the Soviet Union had an inadequate Merchant fleet during the Second world war.



Just like you knowed that Fins did the Mainila shootings? Care to give me sources for you'r comment, untill that i will believe Whiskys sources.
Image
Soviet cogitations: 1791
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Dec 2004, 11:58
Party Member
Post 02 Feb 2005, 12:43
I really don't care what you believe. I'm just encouraging other members not to believe it.
Image
Soviet cogitations: 39
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 23 Nov 2004, 15:18
Pioneer
Post 02 Feb 2005, 14:18
Nikita* wrote:
Do some research of the Soviet Fleet, during the time of the Second World War, they did not have sufficent amount of Merchant ships to do such a thing.

Obviously those links are wrong, I know for a fact the Soviet Union had an inadequate Merchant fleet during the Second world war.

It is correct that SU didn't have enough merchant ships to do that, that's why those ships were delivered as part of Lend-Lease. Also, like I said, there were "Soviet" ships, which were in truth US ships but using only Soviet flags and insignias on their travel over the Pacific, especially the last leg from Kamchatcha to Vladivostok. At least nine of those ships were sunken by Japanese, but they generally didn't want to touch those as they usually followed the coastal route to Vladivostok and like I wrote, Japanese didn't want to disturb Soviet Union when they were busy with Western Allies and Chinese.

If you think options, you'll see that Vladivostok was the best target before Black Sea opened early 1945. Persian route didn't even have railroad and Murmansk/Archangelsk route was behind severe weather conditions and under the threat of German bombers. Also Murmansk rail line was sporadically cut by Finnish 'sissi's or bombers. When you check what were transported to Vladivostok, you notice that major part was raw materials and machinery needed for arms production, and they had to be transported anyway to the other side of the Urals.
Soviet cogitations: 1791
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Dec 2004, 11:58
Party Member
Post 02 Feb 2005, 14:41
Quote:
It is correct that SU didn't have enough merchant ships to do that, that's why those ships were delivered as part of Lend-Lease. Also, like I said, there were "Soviet" ships, which were in truth US ships but using only Soviet flags and insignias on their travel over the Pacific, especially the last leg from Kamchatcha to Vladivostok. At least nine of those ships were sunken by Japanese, but they generally didn't want to touch those as they usually followed the coastal route to Vladivostok and like I wrote, Japanese didn't want to disturb Soviet Union when they were busy with Western Allies and Chinese.


Are you aware of the hardship it would require to move the supposed thousands of tanks, trucks, planes etc though the Trans-Siberian railway, even by ship it would take a massive amount of time.

Quote:
If you think options, you'll see that Vladivostok was the best target before Black Sea opened early 1945. Persian route didn't even have railroad and Murmansk/Archangelsk route was behind severe weather conditions and under the threat of German bombers. Also Murmansk rail line was sporadically cut by Finnish 'sissi's[Apropriate name] or bombers. When you check what were transported to Vladivostok, you notice that major part was raw materials and machinery needed for arms production, and they had to be transported anyway to the other side of the Urals.


Actually the Urals are inaccesable from the Western portion through railway, therefore they had to be transported futher east to the City of Tyumen, where they would then be required to move them into the Urals, if what you say is true. All machinery which was required was already located in the Soviet Union before the beginning of operation of Barbarossa, due to the intensity of the initial German offenses, they were moved before they could become fully operational, they were not in need of extra machinery.

Quote:
Persian route didn't even have railroad


Actually it did, but was unable to be used due to it being totally cut of by the siege of Stalingrad, and the immense destruction of futher parts of the tracks.

Quote:
When you check what were transported to Vladivostok, you notice that major part was raw materials


That's interesting, they would chose to move the heaviest and most precious items along the most delicate and dangerous part of the track, for instance such heavy items would have been impossible to fit through the narrow cavens of the Baikal lake, and the tiny mountain tunnels, which only a metre of above head room was availiable.
Image
Soviet cogitations: 39
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 23 Nov 2004, 15:18
Pioneer
Post 02 Feb 2005, 15:40
Nikita* wrote:
Are you aware of the hardship it would require to move the supposed thousands of tanks, trucks, planes etc though the Trans-Siberian railway, even by ship it would take a massive amount of time.

Did you read the page I gave? Only the 1/6 of the vehicles were sent through Pacific route, rest through Atlantic route. Only during the summer of 1945 did Pacific route get more vehicles than Atlantic. The most of the bombers were flown to (and through) Soviet Union.
Quote:
Actually the Urals are inaccesable from the Western portion through railway, therefore they had to be transported futher east to the City of Tyumen, where they would then be required to move them into the Urals, if what you say is true. All machinery which was required was already located in the Soviet Union before the beginning of operation of Barbarossa, due to the intensity of the initial German offenses, they were moved before they could become fully operational, they were not in need of extra machinery.

In any case US sent over 1 200 000 tons of machinery to SU. About 3/5 through Pacific.
Quote:
Quote:
Persian route didn't even have railroad

Actually it did, but was unable to be used due to it being totally cut of by the siege of Stalingrad, and the immense destruction of futher parts of the tracks.

There was no rail connection from Persian Gulf to Soviet border, as Tehran-Tabriz-line (750km) was built after the WWII. Otherwise you had to transport the material over the Caspian Sea from Bandar-e-Shah.
Quote:
Quote:
When you check what were transported to Vladivostok, you notice that major part was raw materials

That's interesting, they would chose to move the heaviest and most precious items along the most delicate and dangerous part of the track, for instance such heavy items would have been impossible to fit through the narrow cavens of the Baikal lake, and the tiny mountain tunnels, which only a metre of above head room was availiable.

Sorry, I don't understand.
I have always thought that raw materials (oil, metal bars, chemicals, canned food, grain) are the most easily transported through rail. How they are hard to fit through tunnels?
And I certainly wouldn't say that metal bars are most precious.
Soviet cogitations: 1791
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Dec 2004, 11:58
Party Member
Post 03 Feb 2005, 01:51
To make this less difficult:

a] Can you give me the exact figures for what supposedly was sent to the Soviet Union?

b] Can you give me the specific dates and transport routes of which they were supposed to have arrived from.

Thankyou.
Image
Soviet cogitations: 39
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 23 Nov 2004, 15:18
Pioneer
Post 03 Feb 2005, 10:48
Nikita* wrote:
To make this less difficult:

a] Can you give me the exact figures for what supposedly was sent to the Soviet Union?

b] Can you give me the specific dates and transport routes of which they were supposed to have arrived from.

You are making this more difficult.

Due to sheer volume of the lend-lease what you ask is impossible. We are talking about over 1600 shiploads of material. To do so, one has to have free access to both Soviet and US archives, port records and shipping orders.


The only things which are published and which could be given are summaries like presented in http://www.o5m6.de/routes.html. If you want to have more fine grained division, then you have to check sources (like http://www.o5m6.de/sources.html) and their sources, ending to those port records and shipping orders.

Good luck for your hunt!
Nil
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 224
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Feb 2005, 19:15
Pioneer
Post 21 Feb 2005, 00:33
Some interesting Lend-Lease information. To add to all of this, I've seen photographs from American Fighter factories in WW2 in western New York. They show literally hundreds of fighters in USSR colors being readied for delivery to the Soviets...

http://www.battlefield.ru/lendlease/intro.html

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761564262/Lend-Lease.html

http://wwics.si.edu/index.cfm?topic_id=1409&fuseaction=library.print_this&id=124&stoplayout=true

http://www.feldgrau.com/econo.html
Soviet cogitations: 1791
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Dec 2004, 11:58
Party Member
Post 21 Feb 2005, 06:44
Lend lease aids were not decisive in the Soviet victory.
Image
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 10768
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 23 Feb 2005, 01:20
Quote:
Some interesting Lend-Lease information. To add to all of this, I've seen photographs from American Fighter factories in WW2 in western New York. They show literally hundreds of fighters in USSR colors being readied for delivery to the Soviets...


I didn't think the US painted the materials the shipped to the Soviets in Soviet colors.
Image

"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 2940
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Jul 2004, 16:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 23 Feb 2005, 14:33
Let's not forget that nothing ever came out of the US for free. The Union payed for their so called aid in grain and other food-stuffs.
Image


The future belongs to those of us still willing to get our hands dirty!
-Kaptn K
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 782
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 25 Nov 2004, 17:44
Unperson
Post 23 Feb 2005, 14:56
Kamrat Johan wrote:
Let's not forget that nothing ever came out of the US for free. The Union payed for their so called aid in grain and other food-stuffs.


hahaha.

Care to tell how much "grain" they paid to USA?
Image
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 2940
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Jul 2004, 16:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 23 Feb 2005, 21:43
I got this information out of the book "Sovjetunionens seger i andra världskriget" (The Soviet Union's victory in the second world war) by Mario Sousa. Unfortunately I don't have a link in English, but if you can read Swedish, Kormy I could probably fix something.

By the way I was wrong concerning the grain. The US received 300.000 tonnes of chrome ore, 32.000 tonnes of mangan ore as well as platinum and furs.

The American minister of trade (J. Jones) even went so far as to say: "With the deliveries from the Soviet Union did we not just receive our money back but also made a profit."
Image


The future belongs to those of us still willing to get our hands dirty!
-Kaptn K
Soviet cogitations: 1236
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 05 Feb 2005, 05:12
Unperson
Post 24 Feb 2005, 02:31
US aid program was useless, it receives way more recognition than it deserves....
Image
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 782
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 25 Nov 2004, 17:44
Unperson
Post 24 Feb 2005, 11:01
SVU-AII wrote:
US aid program was useless, it receives way more recognition than it deserves....



Yeah, soviets could have walked too. Who needs trucks anyways? Or food.


So useless.
Image
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 2940
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Jul 2004, 16:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 24 Feb 2005, 11:59
How about you post some proof instead of bitching so much, Kormy?
Image


The future belongs to those of us still willing to get our hands dirty!
-Kaptn K
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 782
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 25 Nov 2004, 17:44
Unperson
Post 24 Feb 2005, 12:02
Kamrat Johan wrote:
How about you post some proof instead of bitching so much, Kormy?



Have you even read the topic?



The proof is in first posts.
Image
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 2940
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Jul 2004, 16:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 24 Feb 2005, 12:19
Kormy's evidence
Quote:
Soviet historians have typically denigrated the Allied efforts to supply the Soviet Union with war material as paltry in comparison with her own production and that it was not essential to the Soviet victory. In armored fighting vehicles this is somewhat true, in aircraft less true and in raw and semi-finished industrial materials this is a bold-faced lie.
Information has appeared recently that put the lie to that old communist claim.


An article that from the start announces an opinion is not exactly a well-balanced source, is it? That entire link was just west propagande straight through.

Will you at least admit that the Soviet Union could have won the war without Lend-lease aid? Maybe not quite as fast, although I think so, but that victory would have been their's never the less.
Image


The future belongs to those of us still willing to get our hands dirty!
-Kaptn K
Alternative Display:
Mobile view
More Forums: The History Forum. The UK Politics Forum.
© 2000- Soviet-Empire.com. Privacy.
cron