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Stalin, the "hero"

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Soviet cogitations: 301
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Jun 2004, 17:01
Komsomol
Post 18 Jul 2006, 03:16
My anti-Stalinist views are well documented in Australian Stalinist journals, though they ignore precisely what I say and attack my personality not my arguments.
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Soviet cogitations: 3508
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Jun 2005, 23:39
Politburo
Post 18 Jul 2006, 03:28
Quote:
My anti-Stalinist views are well documented in Australian Stalinist journals, though they ignore precisely what I say and attack my personality not my arguments.


But you didn't put across an argument, you merely made a statement based only on your opinion. You attacked no points.
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'Soviet-Empire. 500% more methods than other leading brands.'
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Soviet cogitations: 10785
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 18 Jul 2006, 04:07
Quote:
Stalin enforced Plan 227, upon which the fate of WWII hinged


He also let the war get that bad.

Quote:
delivered a wide-ranging industralisation and modernisation programme which improved Russia's standard of living


And the number of people who died for that? How many million?

Quote:
presented a tough stance on revisionism and trotskyism


Well Trotsky's minions were all of the USSR spreading their capitalist lies and trying to destroy the USSR.


Quote:
which prevented the collapse of the Communist Party from in-fighting.


The killings and purges were all of the counter-revolutionaires.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
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Soviet cogitations: 4698
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Jun 2005, 23:41
Politburo
Post 18 Jul 2006, 04:16
CONGRATULATIONS! THIS THREAD LOOKS LIKE IT'S ABOUT TO TURN INTO ANOTHER ...

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Last edited by Methods on 18 Jul 2006, 04:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Winner of the Who Is My Baby's Daddy? Mazenov Award
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Soviet cogitations: 10785
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 18 Jul 2006, 04:18
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Explain.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
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Soviet cogitations: 4698
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Jun 2005, 23:41
Politburo
Post 18 Jul 2006, 04:25
Every Stalin-Trotsky debate that's ever happened on this forum seems to turn into a cock-fest, usually ending with many tears and bans. Just about as futile as the various lib-con bitching that goes around PoFo for weeks.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
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Post 18 Jul 2006, 04:26
Your right. But the debate must go on.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
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Soviet cogitations: 3508
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Jun 2005, 23:39
Politburo
Post 18 Jul 2006, 04:35
HOLT CALM DOWN!

You seem to freak out whenever people argue about Stalin and Trotsky. Sure it may be futile to a degree, but this is a healthy debate and has not turned into a flame war.

Red Rebel is right: The Debate Must Go On.
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'Soviet-Empire. 500% more methods than other leading brands.'
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Jun 2005, 23:41
Politburo
Post 18 Jul 2006, 04:36
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
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Post 18 Jul 2006, 06:56
I'll stick with my point that all the good Stalin did was also caused by his bad.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 May 2006, 07:44
Ideology: Left Communism
Resident Soviet
Post 18 Jul 2006, 11:09
Stalin's a controvercial figure, but his achievements are real, and moreover, they were crucial for the survival of the USSR.

Remember 1931. "We must make this distance in 10 years, or they will crush us".
22 June 1941, they set out to crush us. But they failed.
Soviet cogitations: 31
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 08 Aug 2006, 04:53
Pioneer
Post 10 Aug 2006, 21:12
you do truelly sicken me
stalin wasnt a hero he was a murder who raided his army and and a since caused there to be so much death and distruction and almost costed the russian peoples their independance and the entire allies as a whole to lose the war. You must remember the only person that could confront stalin and had the blessing from Vladimir Lenin was Trotsky. What i could get from my wonderful public school is that he wanted to continue the revolution outside russia. If he would have came in he might have gotten the Germans Italians or even the FRench to turn red. Ofcourse there are many more viarables but its just something to think about
truefully i think Stalin should have been shot
I would have been happy to pull the trigger
Matthew S
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Soviet cogitations: 2932
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Aug 2006, 17:30
Party Bureaucrat
Post 16 Aug 2006, 22:36
http://www.etext.org/Politics/Staljin/S ... /lies.html

454,000 is not 9 million
http://www.etext.org/Politics/Staljin/S ... ode16.html

Happy reading.

Ps. If someone wants the original academic research report (American Historical Review Vol. 98 No. 4), just yell.
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Ideology transforms human beings into subjects, leading them to see themselves as self-determining agents when they are in fact shaped by ideological processes. L. Althusser
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Soviet cogitations: 10785
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 17 Aug 2006, 01:05
Quote:
C. Murders of "class enemies" - 3,000,000
D. 1933 Famine caused by disaster of first Five Year Plan (installation of collectivism) - 7,000,000
E. Stalinist purges - 1,500,000
F. Labor camp deaths, 1921-1960 - 19,000,000


I admit that "F." seems to high though.
Source

Purges

Quote:
[...]Stalin is reputed to have personally signed 40,000 death warrants of suspected political opponents.

During this period, the practice of mass arrest, torture, and imprisonment or execution without trial, of anyone suspected by the secret police of opposing Stalin's regime became commonplace. By the KGB's own estimates, 681,692 people were shot during 1937-38 (although many historians think that this was an undercount), and millions of people were transported to Gulag work camps.

[...]

It is believed by most historians that with the purges, famines, state terrorism, labor camps, and forced migrations, Stalin was responsible for the deaths of millions. How many millons that died under Stalin is greatly disputed. Although no official figures have been released by the Soviet or Russian government, most estimates put the figure at between eight and twenty million. The most extreme estimates put the figure as high as 50 million.


I'm not sure how many million he had killed or how many died because of his actions but it was in the millions.

Death Toll
Quote:
Comparison of the 1926-39 census results suggests 5-10 million deaths in excess of what would be normal in the period, mostly through famine in 1931-34.


Wiki
Quote:
Thus, while some archival researchers have posited the number of victims of Stalin's repressions to be no more than about 4 million in total

Quote:
Regardless, it appears that a minimum of around 10 million surplus deaths (4 million by repression and 6 million from famine) are attributable to the regime


Millions of people died because of stalin.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
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Soviet cogitations: 2932
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Aug 2006, 17:30
Party Bureaucrat
Post 17 Aug 2006, 01:19
Quote:
Millions of people died because of stalin.


Not according to the academics at UCLA & Birmington. You should be happy, it is confirmed by bourgeois-academics.
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Ideology transforms human beings into subjects, leading them to see themselves as self-determining agents when they are in fact shaped by ideological processes. L. Althusser
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Soviet cogitations: 10785
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 17 Aug 2006, 01:30
Quote:
Not according to the academics at UCLA & Birmington.


A link or something? Unless Mario Sousa is from there.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
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Soviet cogitations: 2932
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Aug 2006, 17:30
Party Bureaucrat
Post 17 Aug 2006, 01:39
Just look some posts back.
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Ideology transforms human beings into subjects, leading them to see themselves as self-determining agents when they are in fact shaped by ideological processes. L. Althusser
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Soviet cogitations: 10785
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 17 Aug 2006, 01:45
Quote:
http://www.etext.org/Politics/Staljin/Staljin/articles/lies/lies.html


From that? I fail to see where UCLA & Birmington are mentioned.
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
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Soviet cogitations: 2932
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Aug 2006, 17:30
Party Bureaucrat
Post 17 Aug 2006, 01:45
Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-War Years: A First Approach on the Basis of Archival Evidence
J. Arch Getty; Gabor T. Rittersporn; Viktor N. Zemskov
The American Historical Review, Vol. 98, No. 4. (Oct., 1993), pp. 1017-1049.

http://users.skynet.be/bk335835/stalin.pdf

Here ya go, the full academic report. In the appendix you have the "victims" after the wars.
Getty -> UCLA; Rittersporn -> Birmington (google)

Together with this
454,000 is not 9 million
http://www.etext.org/Politics/Staljin/S ... ode16.html
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Ideology transforms human beings into subjects, leading them to see themselves as self-determining agents when they are in fact shaped by ideological processes. L. Althusser
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 10785
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 17 Aug 2006, 02:21
Quote:
http://users.skynet.be/bk335835/stalin.pdf


page 1022
1,641,200 documented deaths in camps (from conditions and executions)

page 1024
Between 1934-1953 1,053,829 died in Gulags (not including the deaths from the labor colonies).
2.3 million from the purges
But really most of the article consist of what the Gulags were made up of (ie educated, race, sex, ect)
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
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