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Many people predicted USSR's collapse

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Soviet cogitations: 981
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 08 Aug 2011, 22:59
Ideology: Other Leftist
Komsomol
Post 09 Jun 2013, 17:20
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
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Philosophized
Post 09 Jun 2013, 17:47
Edvard, every enemy the USSR ever had gleefully predicted its collapse. But it's worth reiterating 1,000 times that it crumbled from within, thanks to the traitor Gorbachev and his cabal of "democratic reformers". Treason did what the Wehrmacht and the combined might of the West were never able to accomplish.
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
Soviet cogitations: 112
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Apr 2013, 20:13
Pioneer
Post 09 Jun 2013, 19:09
Comrade Gulper wrote:
But it's worth reiterating 1,000 times that it crumbled from within, thanks to the traitor Gorbachev and his cabal of "democratic reformers".


This. Anyone who claims that an outside force caused its collapse is a fool. The USSR was a mighty and strong nation until Gorbachev came into office, and that was the beginning of the end.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 22 Oct 2004, 15:15
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Politburo
Post 09 Jun 2013, 20:52
Comrade Gulper wrote:
Edvard, every enemy the USSR ever had gleefully predicted its collapse. But it's worth reiterating 1,000 times that it crumbled from within, thanks to the traitor Gorbachev and his cabal of "democratic reformers". Treason did what the Wehrmacht and the combined might of the West were never able to accomplish.


There were quite a few enemies of the USSR who actually thought that the USSR would strengthen. Mainly those whose job was to justify increased arms spending by the US. The amount of people who made this prediction only proves that it wasn't a particularly brilliant one, especially in those cases where it's just a general statement.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 09 Jun 2013, 20:54
I love how Trotsky's prediction was the only one with a reasonable argument behind it.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
Soviet cogitations: 12389
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
Ideology: None
Philosophized
Post 09 Jun 2013, 21:37
No 14 wrote:
There were quite a few enemies of the USSR who actually thought that the USSR would strengthen. Mainly those whose job was to justify increased arms spending by the US. The amount of people who made this prediction only proves that it wasn't a particularly brilliant one, especially in those cases where it's just a general statement.

The people who were making those arguments in the Cold War days are now the same people making the same exact claims about gays, immigrants, and Islamists. They haven't gotten any more brilliant, but the combined might of Wall Street and the exorbitant growth of the military-industrial complex has rendered them "too big to fail".
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 09 Jun 2013, 21:43
Quote:
This. Anyone who claims that an outside force caused its collapse is a fool. The USSR was a mighty and strong nation until Gorbachev came into office, and that was the beginning of the end.

This is wrong, the USSR had started to decline long before Gorby. God created Gorby to punish the USSR for its sins, but he isn't the cause.

Trotsky's arguments were swept away by history. This failed Nostradamus also predicted the military defeat of the USSR.

Emmanuel Todd is certainly much more interesting that Trotsky in this regard.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Soviet cogitations: 112
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Apr 2013, 20:13
Pioneer
Post 09 Jun 2013, 22:07
OP-Bagration wrote:
This is wrong, the USSR had started to decline long before Gorby. God created Gorby to punish the USSR for its sins, but he isn't the cause.


Then who exactly was the cause? One could argue Khrushchev, because his revisionist policies may have somewhat contributed to the decline of the USSR. One could also argue maybe Brezhnev, because he stagnated the Soviet economy.

Although I won't deny that other Soviet leaders may have somewhat contributed to the decline of the USSR, the fact is that Gorby was the one who fully collapsed it. It seems probable that if Gorbachev was never leader of the Soviet Union, it would have never collapsed. Prior to his policies of glasnost and perestroika, a lot of people thought the Cold War seemed like it would go on forever. By the late 1980s, the collapse of the Soviet Union seemed almost inevitable.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 09 Jun 2013, 22:37
Nobody is the cause. There is many causes, a great part of those causes are external, some are internal. The main cause imo is the increase in weapon production. Yet this cause is both internal and external and there is no true responsibility for that: you could have made the choice to decrease weapon production, but you would have taken a big military risk. Even if the coup against Gorby had succeeded, we can't be sure of what would have happened next. There is of course many more causes: for example, you have the problem of the difference between education and available jobs, the same problem as in Cuba today. There was no such problem in the 1930's-1950's, but once the population is educated, you have to give them jobs according to their education level. In the USSR, in the 1960's-1980's, a factory worker had the skill to obtain an intellectual job, and there was many bridges between work branches. That's a great achievement, but also a big threat to the moral of the population since the available jobs were limited.

http://www.culture-of-peace.info/soviet ... ction.html
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 10 Jun 2013, 00:28
By the time of the coup (which here in Russia is almost universally seen by now as Gorbachev initiated, by the way), it was too late. Before 1987-88 is another story. Every country and civilization goes through its ups and downs. There were periods when the French Republic as we know it came close to collapsing. The US seemed pretty close to the brink in the 1970s as a result of Vietnam, Watergate, stagflation, gas crises, etc.

The USSR in 1985 had its problems, but they were nothing compared to the crises and problems the country had already faced and overcome -wars, famine, extreme poverty, violent class warfare. Whatever negative changes might have been initiated in the Khrushchev and Brezhnev periods, they were not enough to bring the country to the brink (and on the contrary, there were also many achievements and positive changes, especially during Brezhnev's reign). A crisis leading to collapse required total economic paralysis, the restructuring of societal consciousness (awareness of and attitudes toward the Soviet system, its past and present), and a renunciation of socialist ideals. All of this could only occur under a Gorbachev. The mere existence of closet liberals or nationalists among the intelligentsia, or opportunists among the party and managerial elites -all of this matters relatively little. What matters is having someone at the top who can give these radicals not only a voice, but the dominant voice in an attempted reformation of the country. Only then can this minority begin to influence the majority through the mass media and art, and to make reforms in other spheres (economics, foreign policy, etc.) which lead to the destabilization and destruction of the country.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
Ideology: None
Philosophized
Post 10 Jun 2013, 01:05
Soviet78 speaks with great authority and wisdom (on this subject, at least!). I truly could not have summed it up better than this.
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Dec 2011, 00:54
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 10 Jun 2013, 03:36
Agreed. Soviet 78's Essay on the role of Glasnost is very enlightening.

Most of the issues covered in it are either ignored or surpressed in the West sadly.

I'd recommend checking it out. In fact I have been reccomending & posting links to it when I have encountered ignorance or propoganda in support of Glasnost & the Myth that the USSR was doomed etc.
"A shiny bauble from Capitalism is worthless when the cost is Children & the Elderly going hungry, The Infirm & Sick dying because of Greed & Education reduced to a token few to placate the masses with Illusions of freedom."
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Aug 2008, 18:12
Party Member
Post 10 Jun 2013, 19:14
The Soviet Union succumbed to its own internal contradictions. The task of Marxists since 1991 has been to determine what exactly these contradictions were.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 08 Aug 2011, 22:59
Ideology: Other Leftist
Komsomol
Post 13 Jun 2013, 22:29
Comrade Gulper wrote:
Edvard, every enemy the USSR ever had gleefully predicted its collapse. But it's worth reiterating 1,000 times that it crumbled from within, thanks to the traitor Gorbachev and his cabal of "democratic reformers". Treason did what the Wehrmacht and the combined might of the West were never able to accomplish.

According to you, foreign influence was not substantial then? Foreign intelligence services, BND, CIA, etc?

Workers Revolution wrote:
This. Anyone who claims that an outside force caused its collapse is a fool. The USSR was a mighty and strong nation until Gorbachev came into office, and that was the beginning of the end.

I think your last sentence summs it up nicely, the reason why the USSR collapsed - as it never was A nation, but many a multi-national state.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
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Philosophized
Post 15 Jun 2013, 02:04
The only foreign influence that played a hand in the dissolution of the USSR was whatever demon possessed Gorbachev, Yeltsin, and co. to become conscious and unrepentant traitors and lackeys for imperialist capital. I don't know that you can narrow it down to any one organization or individual. It seems to have been more of a serious moral and intellectual failing on the part of these traitors that led them into treason.
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
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Soviet cogitations: 981
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 08 Aug 2011, 22:59
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Komsomol
Post 15 Jun 2013, 17:45
Comrade Gulper wrote:
The only foreign influence that played a hand in the dissolution of the USSR was whatever demon possessed Gorbachev, Yeltsin, and co. to become conscious and unrepentant traitors and lackeys for imperialist capital. ... It seems to have been more of a serious moral and intellectual failing on the part of these traitors that led them into treason.

Do you really think that one person's treason could result in the whole country's collapse? If that was so, how come others didn't roll it back?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 16 Jun 2013, 15:06
Edo knows what he's saying. The stalinist bureaucracy had to fall because, after industrialization, it acted as a fetter on the development of the productive forces. There were only two ways out: Either a radical change towards soviet democracy or the restoration of capitalism. The first option was prevented by the complete destruction of the original traditions of Bolshevism. The collapse of the bureaucracy could only have had a happy end if there had been revolutionary Marxists in the USSR, but Stalin exterminated them all.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 17 Jun 2013, 12:50
Saying that it's because of the "bureaucracy", or because of Gorby, this is the same idealistic interpretation. A state can't collapse because of its bureaucracy, since the bureaucracy is supposed to protect the state. And it's quite clear that in the USSR, the bureaucracy tried to resist (the military coup against Gorby and the 1993 events).
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
Soviet cogitations: 10005
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 17 Jun 2013, 14:27
Quote:
the bureaucracy is supposed to protect the state


Yes, tell me more about how I'm an idealist.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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Soviet cogitations: 2293
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 17 Jun 2013, 14:38
This is Marxism comrade Mabool. A bureaucracy isn't a class, it's a political structure, part of the state, and the state has a function. Anti-Marxists attempt to reify the bureaucracy.
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"Fishing is part of agriculture" Gred
"Loz, you are like me" Yami
"I am one of the better read Marxists on this site" Gred
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