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Stalin's Holocaust?

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 16 May 2011, 19:52
But did Stalin not also create the Jewish Autonomous Oblast? Why would an anti-Semite do that?
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 May 2011, 15:53
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Post 16 May 2011, 20:59
Mabool writes:
Quote:
But did Stalin not also create the Jewish Autonomous Oblast? Why would an anti-Semite do that?


Do you know where the JAO was/is? Here's a hint - it is one time zone and one province away from Magadan
Stalin created the JAO not as some kind of benevolent boon to Jews, but as a ideological counter to Zionism - and then he dumped them in the middle of nowhere, in a place that was 90% swampland, about as far away from civilation as the borders of the Soviet Union permitted. The Jews that were there exited as quicly as they could after Stalin's death, the last census of the JAO revealed that less than 2% of the total population remaining identified themselves as Jews.

Radzinsky claims that nothing Stalin did ever was without purpose, which may explain Nikolai Poliakov's recollections that Stalin before his death envisioned using the JAO as a kind of "resettlement" area after the full story of Jewish treachery was to be revealed during the show trials that were to be arranged for the Doctors Plot. According to Poliakov, Stalin would in effect have been deporting a dangerous class enemy (somewhat similar to the treatment he afforded the Volga Germans and the Volga-German ASSR in 1941) under the guise of saving Soviet Jews from the soon to be enraged population of Soviet non-Jews.
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«Наше дело правое. Враг будет разбит. Победа будет за нами.»
Выступление по радио В. М. Молотова 22 июня 1941 г.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Nov 2010, 16:48
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 05 Jun 2011, 00:30
Quote:
In a place that was 90% swampland, about as far away from civilation as the borders of the Soviet Union permitted


Russia, for its greater part is composed of swampland and inhospitable environments, so your statement that Stalin gave the Jews the JAO to make their lives worse is just BS becuase millions of other people, non-jewish russian lived in similar environment and called it home. what did you expect, that downtown Moscow was going to be given to a entirely jewish population. What makes Jews so much better than the rest of the soviet peoples?

Quote:
Stalin would in effect have been deporting a dangerous class enemy

Historical fact: many Jews in the Brezhnev period were suddenly inspired by Nationalism(Zionism) and started distrusting their soviet government on claims of anti-semitism.
Where in fact it was anti-zionism. So infact the portion of the jewish population who did not assimilate turned out to be class enemies supporting US imperialism and capitalism.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Apr 2007, 18:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 07 Jun 2011, 16:13
Quote:
what did you expect, that downtown Moscow was going to be given to a entirely jewish population. What makes Jews so much better than the rest of the soviet peoples?

This, all the way. Stalin himself even said that anti-semitism was an offense punishable by death in the Soviet Union. Stalin can be called many things, but anti-semite is just slander.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 05 Dec 2010, 16:17
Komsomol
Post 26 Jun 2011, 14:20
Wasn't Molotov's wife Polina Zhemchuzhina forced to divorce him and arrested for being Jewish?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 20 Feb 2011, 07:51
Pioneer
Post 26 Jun 2011, 17:53
I can't see how she was arrested for beeing Jewish she was just suspected for treason and for spying that's all and her arrest occured due to her relation with Golda Meir that's a coincidence it is sure that if she had relations with some other ambassador and she was suspected for spy and treason the same things would have happend to her.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2011, 06:55
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Post 14 Jul 2011, 07:19
Stalin was not racist, and was in fact a great supporter of diversity. Much more so than the Tsar, America, Britain, France, etc. ever were. He was never anti-semetic because:

1) Stalin held no ill feelings towards the Jewish community. Unlike in other parts of Russia, such as Malorussia, the Don etc., the people of the Caucusus always respected the Jewish community which numbered hundreds of thousands in Georgia, Ossetia, Ingushetia and Dagestan.

2) A Jewish man paid Stalin's way through school which was the reason he could get an education. Stalin was always greatful, and the Jewish man who paid for Stalin's education was an occaisional guest at the Kremlin. Stalin reveared him as the father he never had.

3) Stalin accused his doctors of mal-practice, which they were convicted of in a criminal court. Many of these doctors were Jewish, and many Imperialist propogandists blew this incident out of proportion and suggested that Stalin specifically targetted the Jewish community and was paranoid (which there is no evidence to suggest).

4) The myth of the pogrom started when Pravda incorrectly published an article suggesting that Stalin would begin one. This was not true, however, and the people responsible for spreading false information were arrested.

5) The JAO was established in the Far East in order not to displace any local populations. The USSR held over 200 ethnic groups, and Stalin could not just give the homeland of a specific people to the Jews to set up their own state. He had to find a land which had belonged to no one, hence he set up the Jewish state in the Far East. The Jews knew exactly what the land would be like, and hence very few people moved there. There were two millions Jews in the RSFSR and only 50,000 moved to the JAO.

Stalin was the greatest leader in human history for his progressive and insightful leadership. He freed the 200+ ethnic groups in the RSFSR and the USSR from the lingual, religious and civil restrictions that were imposed on them during the times of imperialism.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Nov 2003, 13:17
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Forum Commissar
Post 21 Jul 2011, 19:02
Please explain the mass deportations.
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 21 Jul 2011, 19:03
Quote:
Please explain the mass deportations.

Can you be more specific?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Nov 2003, 13:17
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Forum Commissar
Post 22 Jul 2011, 01:09
Quote:
Can you be more specific?


Why were people from the Baltics and Caucuses sent to Siberia and Central Asia by force?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Nov 2010, 16:48
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Komsomol
Post 22 Jul 2011, 01:32
Quote:
Why were people from the Baltics and Caucuses sent to Siberia and Central Asia by force?


I'm going to answer your question from the point of view of Armenia. When the transcaucasian SSR was founded Armenia was a a divided society because a percentage of Armenians were Muslims, who had converted to Islam under ottoman rule. to avoid the enormous tensions, those muslim armenians were sent to the islamic SSR's. This had a long standing effect of creating national unity. This exile saved Armenia at the outbreak of the nagorno-karabagh war, if they were muslim armenians, they would have sided up with the azeris thus creating utter chaos
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Aug 2011, 00:49
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Post 26 Aug 2011, 05:22
In the interest of truth about Stalin please all check out this link.

http://chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/

Peto.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 May 2013, 12:28
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 30 May 2013, 07:06
You will by now have understood that I have a morbid fascination with this subject, I do wonder myself if it is entirely healthy, it's a period when monsters roamed the world and I just cannot comprehend how they contrived to wield such power and perform such atrocities and why supposedly sane and respected people aided and abetted them.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jun 2013, 09:08
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
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Post 07 Jul 2013, 17:18
johndd wrote:
You will by now have understood that I have a morbid fascination with this subject, I do wonder myself if it is entirely healthy, it's a period when monsters roamed the world and I just cannot comprehend how they contrived to wield such power and perform such atrocities and why supposedly sane and respected people aided and abetted them.


Mark Osipovich Reizen (1895-1992) was a leading Soviet-era opera singer with a beautiful and expansive bass voice.

Reizen was born into a Jewish family of mine workers in 1895. He had four brothers and a sister, and all were musically trained, playing mandolin, guitar, balalaika and accordion. He served as a soldier in the First World War. Then he studied as an engineer, but also as a singer at the Kharkiv conservatory with the Italian professor Federico Bugamelli in 1919-1920. He made his debut at the Kharkiv Opera in 1921 as Pimen in Mussorgsky’s Boris Godunov, and in 1925 moved to the Mariinsky Theatre in Leningrad. Reizen toured Paris, Berlin, Monte Carlo and London in 1929-1930.
A tall man commanding a strong stage presence, he joined the Bolshoi Theatre in 1930, remaining there as a principal bass until his retirement in 1954. Among his roles were: Ivan Susanin and Ruslan from the Glinka’s operas, Don Basilio (The Barber of Seville by Rossini), Mephistopheles (Faust by Gounod), Prince Gremin (Eugene Onegin by Tchaikovsky), Salieri (Mozart and Salieri), the Viking merchant (Sadko) in operas by Rimsky-Korsakov, the old Gypsy (Aleko by Rachmaninov), Wotan in Wagner’s Ring of the Nibelungs, Konchak (Prince Igor by Borodin), Philip II and Procida in Verdi’s operas, and so on. He became a particularly memorable interpreter of Boris and Dosifei in the operas by Mussorgsky.
Reizen was awarded the Stalin Prize in 1941, 1949 and 1951.
In 1967 he began teaching, and became a professor at the Moscow Gnessin Institute. He gave an important recital for his 80th anniversary, and for his 90th sang Prince Gremin (in Eugene Onegin) at the Bolshoi in Moscow in July 1985. On both occasions his voice proved to be in a remarkable state of preservation.

“In 1930, Reizen went on a tour of the Moscow Bolshoi Theatre, sang Mephistopheles (Faust) and was immediately noticed by Stalin, who was a music and opera lover. He described a somewhat comical scene as he was invited to the official government box during the intermission, where, dressed as the Devil, he was introduced to Stalin. The dialogue went something like this:
–You sing very well.
–Thank you.
–Why don't you come here more often?
–You see, I sing in Leningrad and only visit here.
–Why not move here and visit there?
–You see, I have a contract there, and an apartment too…
–Perhaps we can do something and find you an apartment here.
The following day and in typical Soviet style, he was surprised by the unannounced visit of an official car with a soldier, who was under orders to take him hunting apartments.

This is how Mark Reizen was engaged at the Bolshoi.” (Anecdote, Opera Gems)
(' 'Mark Reizen - Autobiography - [Autobiograficheskie Zapisky,Stati i Vospominanya) 2nd edition 1986 pp135)
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A scandal-- a Jew was heading the audition list to play Gudonov. HOW COULD ANY BUT A RUSSIAN UNDERSTAND LET ALONE SING HIS PART? Stalin intervened. Mark Reizen was a resounding success. Worldwide.
The world is riven by class — not race, gender, age or disability. There is only one human race, and any ideas that promote divisions between us do the work of capitalism.
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 08 Jul 2013, 02:00
Yes, and there's Matvei Blanter for example, you could find many others too.
But what about Solomon Mikhoels or hundreds of other people who were if not outright killed or imprisoned but certainly made the targets of state persecution ( let's not mention how antisemitism became less of a taboo in the USSR in general, and was often at the very least tolerated ) during the 40s and the early 50s? What about Molotov's wife?
Russian antisemitism has a long history, but it should have subsided by the 70s-80s given the history and development of the Soviet Union, and yet exactly the opposite happened.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Aug 2010, 14:21
Party Bureaucrat
Post 08 Jul 2013, 02:33
It's not because you kill a jew that you are antisemite, especially since many persons are called "jew" but are not jews. Racists call "jew" a person with "jewish" blood, but a communist call "jew" someone who has a jewish culture (language or religion). Even if you repress sionist movements, it doesn't mean that you are antisemite. If you oppose Jewish political movements, it doesn't mean that you are antisemite. Lenin opposed the BUND continuously, yet nobody dare say he was antisemite. How strange.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 08 Jul 2013, 13:32
That's because antisemitism wasn't tolerated by the state organs during Lenin. Although of course antisemitism was very strong back then. Nor were Jewish writers, scientists ( some of whom didn't even consider themselves as "Jews" the way you explained the term ) bullied and denied of promotions and so on.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 08 Jul 2013, 13:51
I believe I missed out on this topic when it first came out because I felt that the posters had effectively repudiated the claims of anti-communist mythologists. Anyway, now that it's come up again, I feel I must contribute, at least to point out that leading up to and during the Second World War, Stalin's Soviet Union did more than any other country in the defense and liberation of Jewish people from Nazism. Whether there is any substance to the claims that Stalin was personally antisemitic (and given arguments made here and elsewhere, that certainly remains up for debate), I find it highly cynical and insulting that scholars whose own countries first supported Hitler, and then turned away the Jews who tried to seek asylum from the Nazis, could present their logically and factually shaky arguments as if they were undisputed facts.

Jews unquestionably played a disproportionate role in the construction and maintenance of the Soviet project. Their cultural propensity for hard work, leading to roles among the intelligentsia meant that as representatives of the political, cultural, and academic elite, they suffered disproportionately relative to the rest of the population. Those who list all the Jewish last names when discussing Stalin's antisemitism never list the statistics on Jewish representation in academia, in medicine, politics, etc. Whether Stalin personally had a negative view of Jews or not has little bearing on the situation, because a) for every example of his 'personal antisemitism' there are counterexamples ala the one dodger brought up, and b) because state policy in the USSR showed no signs of systemic antisemitism at any point in its existence.

Loz, the Soviet people may have become slightly more antisemitic in the 70s and 80s, out of anger at the betrayal and perhaps jealousy of those Jews who decided to leave for Israel and America at that time (in the USSR this phenomenon was called 'sausage immigration', seen as a desire to have a more comfortable life materially, rather than a real need to escape any kind of terrible repression or discrimination). As I've mentioned elsewhere before, I consider the decision to bend to the will of the US on this matter to have been among the biggest mistakes of the Brezhnev period leadership, depriving the country of some of its best minds, poisoning to an extent the social atmosphere, and constituting a propaganda victory for those people who painted the USSR as antisemitic.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
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