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What if-Trotsky?

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Pat
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Jun 2004, 21:22
Embalmed
Post 18 Jul 2008, 05:18
What would happen if Trotsky took power, instead of Stalin?
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I hope this doesn't get me banned again-Fontis
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 08 Nov 2007, 06:31
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Post 18 Jul 2008, 06:30
Probably would've lost WW2.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 03 Jan 2005, 23:18
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Post 18 Jul 2008, 06:31
Whitten wrote:
I think the biggest problem with this whole Trotsky vs Stalin arguement is that no-one really knows what Trotsky would have done differently. He did a lot of criticising and a lot of theory on why international revolution was necessary (no shit) but he never really came out with a list of things he'd do differently.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Jun 2004, 17:30
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Post 18 Jul 2008, 08:50
Whitten, evidently, wrote:
he never really came out with a list of things he'd do differently.


Yes he did. Both while in power and after exile.

The basic spirit is correct though. Counter-factual history is always a mess because there are so many variables at play. Even understanding factual history is a pain for the same reason. To throw just one thing out of the equation Frag every single other part of the equation ups to the point that it's barley a worthwhile endeavour.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Jan 2007, 06:42
Komsomol
Post 18 Jul 2008, 15:20
Trotsky would've taken an overly aggressive stance against the peasantry prematurely - possibly leading the country into deep famine in the mid 1920's. His tactics were not altogether that different from Stalin's. Further, he would've taken an aggressive stance against Western imperialists that would've disrupted the flow of capital for industrialization into the Soviet Union, prompted by his desire for permanent revolution.

This would've left the Soviet Union behind and as mentioned above, would've left the USSR in a more vulnerable position for events to come.

Trotsky was seen as a blood-thirsty zealot and snide academic by many of his contemporaries in the Central Committee. When it came to Lenin's testament Trotsky, Zinoviev, and Kamenev received the most severe criticism. The most damning thing Lenin had to say about Stalin was that he was "rude," and this came briefly after Stalin had an altercation with the over-sensitive Krupskaya - not to mention Lenin's judgment was questionably impaired at this time due to his worsening condition.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Feb 2005, 02:51
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Post 18 Jul 2008, 16:08
Quote:
The most damning thing Lenin had to say about Stalin was that he was "rude," and this came briefly after Stalin had an altercation with the over-sensitive Krupskaya

==Not really, from the testament
Quote:
Comrade Stalin, having become Secretary-General, has unlimited authority concentrated in his hands, and I am not sure whether he will always be capable of using that authority with sufficient caution. Comrade Trotsky, on the other hand, as his struggle against the C.C. on the question of the People's Commissariat of Communications has already proved, is distinguished not only by outstanding ability. He is personally perhaps the most capable man in the present C.C., but he has displayed excessive self-assurance and shown excessive preoccupation with the purely administrative side of the work.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Apr 2008, 03:25
Embalmed
Post 19 Jul 2008, 04:44
I actually heard that he might have been a worse leader than Stalin was.
Once capitalists know we can release the Kraken, they'll back down and obey our demands for sure.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Mar 2008, 15:45
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Post 30 Aug 2008, 15:38
I actually agree with besochvili for once.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 30 Aug 2008, 23:49
Quote:
I actually heard that he might have been a worse leader than Stalin was.


Oh wow really? Someone said Trotsky was bad, who'd a thunk it?


As for the topic at hand, I'm not really sure. I think the west would have taken a more aggressive stance towards the early USSR but then I also think that Trotsky would have been able to at least cause a civil war in Germany between the fascists and communists instead of letting the country falling into the nazi's hands. If a communist germany had been born instead of a fascist one the world would look much different today. But this most likely would have quickened the arrival of WW2.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Sep 2004, 16:21
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Post 31 Aug 2008, 00:23
Quote:
I also think that Trotsky would have been able to at least cause a civil war in Germany between the fascists and communists instead of letting the country falling into the nazi's hands. If a communist germany had been born instead of a fascist one the world would look much different today. But this most likely would have quickened the arrival of WW2.

I don't see how Trotsky could have enabled the German Communists to take power. The crucial historic opportunity for the Communists in Germany came in 1918-1919, and they failed. The Social Democrat traitors slaughtered the Communist workers, and generally did the Junkers' dirty work for them. This all happened even before Lenin died - the failure of a Communist Revolution in Germany was an established fact even before the power struggle between Trotsky and Stalin. And if it failed in Germany, then I fail to see how it could possibly succeed in France or Britain. No, Stalin's policy of "socialism in one country" was the only viable one by 1923. Anything else would have only weakened the Soviet Union and therefore weakened the cause of international socialism. If the cause of Communism failed there too, then it would have been a terrible strategic defeat for the working class of the entire world. And, as we now know, it was.
"Comrade Lenin left us a great legacy, and we fucкed it up." - Josef Stalin
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 26 May 2008, 04:27
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Post 31 Aug 2008, 18:20
My opinion on Trotsky is that if the revolution did successfully spread into Europe he would've been very successful. Other than that, I am not sure what the outcome of his leadership would've been since it can't be known.

Potemkin wrote:
I don't see how Trotsky could have enabled the German Communists to take power. The crucial historic opportunity for the Communists in Germany came in 1918-1919, and they failed.

What about the Ruhr crisis in 1923? Hyper-inflation and the invading French weakened the German government and made the working class increasingly militant. There were mass strikes & demonstrations, workers were forming militias, and support for the Communist Party increased beyond that of the Social-Democratic Party.

Quote:
No, Stalin's policy of "socialism in one country" was the only viable one by 1923.

Perhaps, but I think taking a harder stance on fascism would've gained the Communists more support from the European working class, and focusing more on worker's revolutions in third world/colonial countries like China(without having the Communist Party fuse with the Kuomintang) would've put pressure on Imperialist countries, thus increasing the chances of socialist revolutions there.
"Neither Maoist, nor internationalist, nor a movement" - heiss93 on the MIM
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Jun 2004, 17:30
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Post 01 Sep 2008, 11:21
Something that might be added was that Trotsky would only allow himself a "victory" under certain conditions. He could have, by every account I've read, led a military coup with some ease as he still had a lot of solid contacts in the military that he had largely built.

However, doing so would not have solved the underlying problem that he - correctly or incorrectly - perceived, and that is a caste of bureaucrats that limited the democratic underpinnings of the Soviet Republic. At best, he would have only replaced one set of bureaucrats with another in such a victory.

This is an important point to make because it underlines Trotsky's definition of the USSR against that of many so-called Trotskyites. Trotsky himself defended the USSR as a worker's state that had degenerated to a certain degree.

Many later "Trotskyists" denounced the USSR as some form of capitalism or something else.

So in Trotsky's view Stalin wasn't so much a devil figure - in some of his work an understandably emotional tone does, however, work its way in - but a component in a scientific process and largely incidental to the revolution.

The effect was that the system itself had to be changed by the encouragement of the proletarian people of the world, including Russia. This was largely what he attempted, and failed, to do.

So the idea that Trotsky would have become a kind of Red Napoleon or something of the sort is rather far-fetched. At best be able to revitalize Soviet democracy and encourage revolution elsewhere - he was particularly influential in China at the time and it's probable Spain and some of the British things would have gone differently. The history of Germany would depend too much on the related events to be accurately guessed.

Now as to if these changes would have been enough, nobody can say. At worst, as he himself alludes, he would have found himself as Stalin, a manifestation of material history more than a demon bent on ruining everything. At best things may have gone better or worse - but it would have been different.

One can optimistically say there would have been total victory and such, but it's just as possible that later down the line nukes would be falling like rain.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Jan 2007, 06:42
Komsomol
Post 14 Oct 2008, 04:39
Quote:
=Not really, from the testament


The arrogance of Trotsky seems far more politically dangerous than Lenin's concerns over whether or not Stalin would exercise necessary "caution" as General Secretary. You should have shared the entire piece, which indicates that Lenin had *suggested* Stalin should perhaps be removed from the post of General Secretary; not from power altogether. Likewise, the testament was far worse in its treatment of others. All in all, Stalin made out pretty well.

Insofar as the underhanded political intrigues involved in inter-party affairs; Trotsky, Zinoviev, Kamenev, and Bukharin were all outmaneuvered by an opponent who had significantly greater political acumen. Don't forget, Stalin offered his resignation and the Central Committee rejected it. And this was at a time when Stalin's power was far from overarching, even for his opponents to claim he had "absolute" control of the party (or so they alleged).
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Jul 2009, 03:21
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Post 21 Jul 2009, 03:59
If Trotsky has taken over Stalin.
1. WWII shouldn't happen. If happens result will be the same.
2. India would have been liberated by a revolutionary support.
3. With India, China , USSR entire Europe would have become Socialist States.
4. Ultimately Mexico and USA would see a Revolution.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 Aug 2006, 19:57
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Post 31 Jul 2009, 23:03
Reading Trotskyism or Leninism by Harpal Brar. Be interested in folks views on it. Reading the Moscow Trials is heavy going at the moment
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 31 Jul 2009, 23:36
Harpal Brar is a known capitalist who exploits cheap indian labor to sell ethnic textiles to the british elite.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Oct 2006, 23:10
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Post 01 Aug 2009, 00:14
All capitalists exploit people. Engels was a capitalist, does that lessen the value of engels writings?
Last edited by Fitzy on 01 Aug 2009, 00:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Feb 2008, 15:25
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Post 01 Aug 2009, 00:16
Quote:
Engels was a capitalist, does that lesson the value of engels writings?


Excellent point. Also:

I've briefly looked up your claims Dagoth and can't find anything solid to back them up. Show us some evidence.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 26 Jun 2006, 15:59
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Party Bureaucrat
Post 01 Aug 2009, 00:40
http://www.trehearneandbrar.com/

Although I prefer to judge Harpal based on his poor quality writings, abominable sectarianism, wholy negative impact on the British left and his personal jerkings off to Stalin that he dares to present as serious scholarly work.
The moment one accepts the notion of 'totalitarianism', one is firmly locked within the liberal-democratic horizon. - Slavoj Žižek
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Oct 2006, 23:10
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Post 01 Aug 2009, 00:42
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