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Children of the Tzar

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Soviet cogitations: 1893
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 May 2003, 23:58
Ancient Communist
Post 03 May 2007, 00:44
"Kill a dog it's gone for good, injure a part of it and it returns with a RABID bite..."

Comrade - these were not Dogs... these were children.

None the less - their execution was necessary. I suspect that it was one of the hardest things for the leaders of the Revolution to order - all knew it was necessary, but the act must have been one of shear force of intellect. Have you ever had to do something you hated, deep in your soul - yet you KNEW intellectually that it HAD to be done?

I do not believe Lenin took any pleasure in this act. But he knew that he had to do this. The Old Order, and all of it's roots, HAD to be oblitereated.
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Soviet cogitations: 2932
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Aug 2006, 17:30
Party Bureaucrat
Post 03 May 2007, 01:38
In fact, Lenin hated his sentimental nature. He said he rather loved listening to romantic masters like Schubert instead of beating the enemies of the people with necessary force. That is also the reason why he waited until the last minute to decide what to do. If the Whites weren't closing in, I don't think he would gave the order.
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Ideology transforms human beings into subjects, leading them to see themselves as self-determining agents when they are in fact shaped by ideological processes. L. Althusser
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Soviet cogitations: 14448
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 03 May 2007, 15:00
Quote:
Comrade - these were not Dogs... these were children.


Of course comrade, it was just an analogy.

Quote:
If the Whites weren't closing in, I don't think he would gave the order.


I think you're right. Lenin wasn't the blood-thirsty megalomaniac that the western media paints him as.
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Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 08 May 2007, 22:18
Quote:
Should the Children of the Tzar have been killed?


No, it is that simple. No one has the right to kill children.

Quote:
Their 'Tsar' would certainly not have been 'the Autocrat of all the Russias', but would have been a powerless puppet ruler


I disagree with your view about the Whites. Had they won the Civil War these i no way that Russia would have returned to its earlier status. The only way this new "White Russia" could survive from major civil unrest would be to make major reforms.
Last edited by Carius on 08 May 2007, 22:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Soviet cogitations: 4177
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Sep 2004, 16:21
Politburo
Post 08 May 2007, 22:28
Quote:
No, it is that simple. No one has the right to kill children.

Really? I'm sure that would be news to Winston Churchill when he ordered the firebombing of Dresden during WWII. Or do you think the Allies had invented a special kind of bomb which miraculously spared children and killed only adults?
"Comrade Lenin left us a great legacy, and we fucкed it up." - Josef Stalin
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Soviet cogitations: 14448
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 08 May 2007, 22:31
Quote:
Or do you think the Allies had invented a special kind of bomb which miraculously spared children and killed only adults?


It kinda funny but at the same time
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Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 08 May 2007, 22:41
Quote:
I'm sure that would be news to Winston Churchill when he ordered the firebombing of Dresden during WWII.


Spare us from hypocrisy and Churchill did not order the bombing. You clearly are not taking this very seriously and frankly I do not see what you are trying to paint, as I started discussion about that bombing.

Quote:
Or do you think the Allies had invented a special kind of bomb which miraculously spared children and killed only adults?


Obviously not, neither had the Soviet Union when they bombed Finnish cities during the war. Interestingly, districts of the Finnish capital Helsinki where poorer working class families lived were heavily bombed, although Stalin talked about "liberating the Finnish workers".
Last edited by Carius on 08 May 2007, 22:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Soviet cogitations: 4177
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Sep 2004, 16:21
Politburo
Post 08 May 2007, 22:42
Quote:
:lol: It kinda funny but at the same time

I was merely pointing out that there are many occasions when killing children is an inescapable necessity, contrary to what Carius rather naively asserted.
"Comrade Lenin left us a great legacy, and we fucкed it up." - Josef Stalin
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Soviet cogitations: 14448
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 08 May 2007, 22:44
Chrildren's death, is as always distasteful, but necessity is necessity. And necessity is rarely pretty. It would be cool if we lived in a world where kids didn't get caught in the crossfire but if we lived in a world killer enough to have such a protection I doubt we'd need a revolution either.
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Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 08 May 2007, 22:48
Obviously death of children cannot be easily avoided during wars, but I do not see any childrens death in good light.

And there is a difference between people being killed in bombing and in execution (shooting small children with automatic weapons and then hitting them with sharp melee weapons as in this case).
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Soviet cogitations: 4177
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Sep 2004, 16:21
Politburo
Post 08 May 2007, 22:59
Quote:
Obviously death of children cannot be easily avoided during wars, but I do not see any childrens death in good light.

Neither do I. I regard the execution of the Tsar's children as a grim necessity.

Quote:
And there is a difference between people being killed in bombing and in execution (shooting small children with automatic weapons and then hitting them with sharp melee weapons as in this case).

From the children's point of view, I fail to see any significant difference. They end up just as dead, and it's actually more humane to be shot and then bayoneted rather than burned alive by incendiary bombs, or crushed under a collapsing building.
"Comrade Lenin left us a great legacy, and we fucкed it up." - Josef Stalin
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Soviet cogitations: 2848
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Nov 2004, 20:31
Party Bureaucrat
Post 08 May 2007, 23:16
Quote:
I regard the execution of the Tsar's children as a grim necessity.


Nonsense.
Last edited by Carius on 11 Oct 2007, 08:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Soviet cogitations: 1893
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 May 2003, 23:58
Ancient Communist
Post 09 May 2007, 00:24
"there is a difference between people being killed in bombing and in execution"

Wellll - I suspect that it makes little difference to those that have just been killed.

Sorry Comrade - I would have to disagree with you here. The principal difference is one that the EXECUTIONER holds... he, she, or they can can claim that someone else did the actual deed... they might even be able to fool themselves enough that they can sleep.

Every Nation, tribe, State, etc has, at one time, been guilty of such acts... consider the actions of European Monarchys durring the late Middle Ages - MANY children were simply murdered.

...and in that, I am still confussed. WHY did Lenin sanction an act that smacks so clearly of something that a Late Middle Ages Royal Family would do? It seems very contrary to Revolutionary thought....
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Soviet cogitations: 4177
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Sep 2004, 16:21
Politburo
Post 09 May 2007, 01:12
Quote:
...and in that, I am still confussed. WHY did Lenin sanction an act that smacks so clearly of something that a Late Middle Ages Royal Family would do? It seems very contrary to Revolutionary thought....


Karl Marx, 'Critique of the Gotha Programme':

Quote:
What we have to deal with here is a communist society, not as it has developed on its own foundations, but, on the contrary, just as it emerges from capitalist society; which is thus in every respect, economically, morally and intellectually, still stamped with the birth marks of the old society from whose womb it emerges.


In other words, you cannot expect a perfect, humane communist society to spring fully formed out of the medieval, feudal filth of Tsarist absolutism. Soviet Russia was still stamped with the birth marks of the old society from whose womb it emerged. Crude methods were necessary in a crude society. We can regret that, but we cannot change it.
"Comrade Lenin left us a great legacy, and we fucкed it up." - Josef Stalin
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Soviet cogitations: 2932
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Aug 2006, 17:30
Party Bureaucrat
Post 09 May 2007, 16:24
Carius, with your absolute idealistic moral standards, you are equally forced to be a anti-capitalist: the unequal power relations between regions, states and classes kill every day alot of people so others could profit from it. Each days thousands of children die because of imperialist-capitalist motives, where is your moral anger now? I'm not saying you should be a marxist, but at least the fierest enemy of capitalism. Either this or becoming a stoic monk.
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Ideology transforms human beings into subjects, leading them to see themselves as self-determining agents when they are in fact shaped by ideological processes. L. Althusser
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Soviet cogitations: 14448
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Philosophized
Post 09 May 2007, 16:31
Which is more creul Carius, a child who is quickly killed by gunfire, or the african child who dies of starvation because the capitalist elite stuff their pockets with the capital of the world.

The children of the Tzar would have been used to defend such a system. Allowing the Tzarist line to continue would continue the plight of the worker in russia.
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Soviet cogitations: 59
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 17 May 2007, 14:16
Pioneer
Post 20 May 2007, 20:46
There appears to have been little choice. We are talking about a monarchy, where power is passed down through a familial line. Any of the Tsar's surviving children would have been kept as a figurehead, and one of the White generals would have acted as regent. It could have helped to unite the fractured White cause. France and the UK had existing agreements with the Romanov dynasty which may have come into play if the line had been re-established. It was necessary, but tragic.
Comrade Yezhov
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Soviet cogitations: 2693
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2006, 08:59
Party Bureaucrat
Post 21 May 2007, 01:06
Quote:
I believe they could have gone the way of the Chinese emperor Pu Yi who in the end became a communist


I think Pu Yi was a hell of a lot more harmless than Czar Nicholas, eh?
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"To know a thing you must study it." --Dagoth Ur
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Soviet cogitations: 59
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 17 May 2007, 14:16
Pioneer
Post 21 May 2007, 04:46
Strictly Greggers,
The Tsar was as much an ineffectual dolt as anybody who lived. More than anyone else, he is responsible for the end of 300 years of Romanov rule (and good riddance).

What is true is that Tsar Nicholas's reign was characterized by brutality and bloodshed. Those people who lived through those times were changed forever. It is entirely accurate to say that they were themselves brutalized by those times (war, famine, revolution, counter-revolution, foreign invasion, assassinations, attempted assassinations, murders, the list is virtually endless).
Comrade Yezhov
"We deem it absolutely necessary and urgent that Comrade Yezhov be nominated to the post of People's Commissar for Internal Affairs"
I.V. Stalin , with A.A. Zhdanov, telegram 25 Sep 1936
Soviet cogitations: 466
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 05 Jan 2006, 18:25
Komsomol
Post 21 May 2007, 12:43
Quote:
There appears to have been little choice


Anybody who kills children in cold blood are murderers.
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