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Che and stalin

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Aug 2006, 17:42
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Post 01 Sep 2006, 14:02
Quote:
Ever heard of dialectics?


heard of? yes...
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 26 Jun 2006, 02:51
Embalmed
Post 11 Sep 2006, 02:13
Che sounds like he was able to learn from a variety of vewpoints like any socialist should be able to. It's possible to defend Stalin while considering Trotsky a great theoretical thinker, for starters.
Krylenko
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Post 11 Sep 2006, 13:54
Quote:
It's possible to defend Stalin while considering Trotsky a great theoretical thinker, for starters.


That is impossible.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Aug 2006, 17:42
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Post 12 Sep 2006, 14:52
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Che sounds like he was able to learn from a variety of vewpoints like any socialist should be able to. It's possible to defend Stalin while considering Trotsky a great theoretical thinker, for starters.


well, cata, as maoists might completely disagree, I think that we as communists need to look beyond hero worship. and read what we read. im my opionion for a Marxist there shouldn't be a whole lot of sacred ground. If there is one plan and one plan only, it is a plan for the ignorant. the reason being there are no true communist states anywhere in the world. we will never achieve them by clinging to systems that were replaced in the contries they originated in.

As the Paris Commune differed from USSR and USSR from Cuba etc. the US needs its own Socialist Identity. as extreme Maoism will go over as well to the US masses as the Pat Sajak show.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
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Philosophized
Post 12 Sep 2006, 16:29
Quote:
Che sounds like he was able to learn from a variety of vewpoints like any socialist should be able to.


Well he did learn from the viewpoints but he didn't aknowledge the difference. I'm thinking about Bolivia where Che did not see the split between the pro-Moscow and pro-Bejing communists.

Quote:
the US needs its own Socialist Identity.


QFT
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 26 Jun 2006, 02:51
Embalmed
Post 13 Sep 2006, 01:59
Quote:
That is impossible.


I do it.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 20 Aug 2006, 18:33
Pioneer
Post 14 Sep 2006, 20:59
Quote:
Che sounds like he was able to learn from a variety of vewpoints like any socialist should be able to. It's possible to defend Stalin while considering Trotsky a great theoretical thinker, for starters.

According to Che, Trotsky was a revisionist, as well as Khrushchov.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
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Post 14 Sep 2006, 22:38
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According to Che, Trotsky was a revisionist, as well as Khrushchov.


This is true, except Che just didn't like Khrushchev because he backed down during the Cuban Missle Crisis (I think).
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"By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Jun 2004, 19:28
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Post 14 Sep 2006, 22:49
That was a major contributing factor, at the least.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Jun 2004, 17:30
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Post 15 Sep 2006, 11:24
Quote:
According to Che, Trotsky was a revisionist, as well as Khrushchov.


From everything I've read on the subject, Che made such statements without reading any Trotsky either - he didn't do that until just before his death. Che was following the standard line and didn't even question it until after he visited the USSR and became rather disillusioned with it (for whatever reason).

-TIG
Alis Volat Propriis; Tiocfaidh Ar La; Proletarier Aller Länder, Vereinigt Euch!
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2006, 08:59
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Post 24 Sep 2006, 04:10
Quote:
From everything I've read on the subject, Che made such statements without reading any Trotsky either - he didn't do that until just before his death. Che was following the standard line and didn't even question it until after he visited the USSR and became rather disillusioned with it (for whatever reason).


What are your sources?
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"To know a thing you must study it." --Dagoth Ur
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Aug 2006, 17:42
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Post 24 Sep 2006, 04:26
I find it hard that Che didn't ever read anything that trotsky wrote until just before his death...

His parents were known leftist and his father apparently had an extensive library of books that che read as a child. he had done enough research and reading that he was going to attempt a bioraphy of marx. (but went to bolivia instead)



a quote from this website i found:

Quote:
Che was attracted towards the Chinese bureaucracy as a result of the "radical face" it adopted during this period and also because of the victory of the peasant army that had taken place in 1949. It appeared to confirm his own analysis. However, he also began to explore the ideas of Leon Trotsky. In Moscow he was attacked as being "pro-Chinese" and a "Trotskyist". Aware of these denunciations Che referred to them in a meeting in the Cuban Embassy with Cuban students. The incident is recounted in Paco Ignacio Taibo's biography.

Che commented: "...I have expressed opinions which could be closer to the Chinese side...and also those mixed up with Trotskyism have come up. They say that the Chinese are fractionalists, also the Trotskyists and me as well." He continued: "Opinion which must be destroyed with batons is opinion which brings us an advantage. It is not possible to destroy opinions with batons and it is precisely this that is the root of intelligence...it is clear that you can get a series of things from Trotsky's thought."

There is no indication of what conclusions Che was drawing from any reading of Trotsky's writings and he did not advocate ideas that would have flowed from him embracing Trotskyism. However, he did continue to study them further. Just before his death in 1967 he was given some books of Trotsky by the French intellectual, Regis Debray, who was in Bolivia, working with Guevara's forces at the time.


http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:KiWphFmKlHQJ:www.socialistalternative.org/literature/che/introduction.html+che+guevara+and+trotsky&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1


I still don't know what to make of this...
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2006, 08:59
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Post 24 Sep 2006, 04:53
Calling Mao-Tse-Tung a Trotskyist was a common slander of the Soviet revisionists (cf. Basmanov, for instance) after Stalin. It was a generic insult though and had no real connection with reality.

That excerpt you posted from a CWI (Trot) site is extremely disjointed and ambiguous, so I have a strong suspicion that it has been ripped out of context and what Che was really saying was something altogether different. I haven't found any quotes of Che that were a conclusively positive appraisal of Trotsky or Trotskyists as yet; to the contrary there are more pro-Stalin or even outright anti-Trotskyist quotes than you can shake a stick at.

As I alluded to earlier in this thread, there was a pack of Trotskyists in Cuba in the Batista years who followed a line of "preventative nuclear strikes" on the part of China and the USSR to precipitate "world socialism" from the ashes of nuclear holocaust (hey, I couldn't make this shit up!) After the Revolution they demanded that the revolutionary junta immediately attack the US' Guantanamo Bay Naval base (towards the aforementioned ends), and goaded some locals into raiding the base. As can be imagined, this needlessly provocative action severely irritated Che who promptly suppressed them.

I highly doubt Che had kind words for Trotsky, but if someone can dig up some information to the contrary I'd love to hear about it.
Last edited by Greg A. Young on 24 Sep 2006, 05:07, edited 2 times in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Aug 2006, 17:42
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Post 24 Sep 2006, 04:56
Quote:
Calling Mao-Tse-Tung a Trotskyist was a common slander of the Soviet revisionists


is this kinda like jobbyman calling everyone and everything that moves a trotskyist?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Jun 2005, 23:41
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Post 24 Sep 2006, 15:25
Quote:
is this kinda like jobbyman calling everyone and everything that moves a trotskyist?


You stole my words, Chaz.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Jun 2004, 17:30
Politburo
Post 25 Sep 2006, 10:45
Debray, Armando Hart, Haydée Santamaria and their children say that Che - while not converting over completly - came in to sympathy with Trotsky before he died.

They knew Che better than I did, but as I said, I don't know that much about Che. He was closer to a Maoist than anything else in my rather uneducated opinion of him.

-TIG
Alis Volat Propriis; Tiocfaidh Ar La; Proletarier Aller Länder, Vereinigt Euch!
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Aug 2006, 17:42
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Post 25 Sep 2006, 14:18
Quote:
He was closer to a Maoist than anything else in my rather uneducated opinion of him.


most likely this is true...

Quote:
while not converting over completly - came in to sympathy with Trotsky before he died.


whether this is true or not, never mattered. his last year of his life there were less than 2 dozen people around him. his poilitcal views were inconsiquential. and all of his bolivian army are dead so we can't find out what was going thru his mind outside of the Bolivian Diary he kept.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2006, 08:59
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Post 26 Sep 2006, 09:14
Quote:
Debray, Armando Hart, Haydée Santamaria and their children say that Che - while not converting over completly - came in to sympathy with Trotsky before he died.


Again, sources would help immensely. Coming from a Che-agnostic Marxist-Leninist perspective, I believe that this is utterly typical Trot splitter factionalist rightist nonsense until given any indication *whatsoever* otherwise. Thanks.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Aug 2006, 17:42
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Post 26 Sep 2006, 10:21
comments removed
Last edited by chaz171 on 26 Sep 2006, 13:49, edited 2 times in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2006, 08:59
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Post 26 Sep 2006, 10:59
Yes, we've been discussing your "source" you just (re-)posted for the last two days. For Frag sake, can you let TIG answer for himself?
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"To know a thing you must study it." --Dagoth Ur
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