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 01 Sep 2006, 14:02
Quote: heard of? yes... 11 Sep 2006, 02:13
Che sounds like he was able to learn from a variety of vewpoints like any socialist should be able to. It's possible to defend Stalin while considering Trotsky a great theoretical thinker, for starters.
11 Sep 2006, 13:54
Quote: That is impossible. 12 Sep 2006, 14:52
Quote: well, cata, as maoists might completely disagree, I think that we as communists need to look beyond hero worship. and read what we read. im my opionion for a Marxist there shouldn't be a whole lot of sacred ground. If there is one plan and one plan only, it is a plan for the ignorant. the reason being there are no true communist states anywhere in the world. we will never achieve them by clinging to systems that were replaced in the contries they originated in. As the Paris Commune differed from USSR and USSR from Cuba etc. the US needs its own Socialist Identity. as extreme Maoism will go over as well to the US masses as the Pat Sajak show. 12 Sep 2006, 16:29
Quote: Well he did learn from the viewpoints but he didn't aknowledge the difference. I'm thinking about Bolivia where Che did not see the split between the pro-Moscow and pro-Bejing communists. Quote: QFT  "By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney 13 Sep 2006, 01:59
Quote: I do it. 14 Sep 2006, 20:59
Quote: According to Che, Trotsky was a revisionist, as well as Khrushchov. 14 Sep 2006, 22:38
Quote: This is true, except Che just didn't like Khrushchev because he backed down during the Cuban Missle Crisis (I think). "By what standard of morality can the violence used by a slave to break his chains be considered the same as the violence of a slave master?" - Walter Rodney 14 Sep 2006, 22:49
That was a major contributing factor, at the least.
 Genuine WCM Sig
Soviet cogitations: 4394
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Jun 2004, 17:30 Politburo 15 Sep 2006, 11:24
Quote: From everything I've read on the subject, Che made such statements without reading any Trotsky either - he didn't do that until just before his death. Che was following the standard line and didn't even question it until after he visited the USSR and became rather disillusioned with it (for whatever reason). -TIG Alis Volat Propriis; Tiocfaidh Ar La; Proletarier Aller Länder, Vereinigt Euch!
Soviet cogitations: 2693
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2006, 08:59 Party Bureaucrat 24 Sep 2006, 04:10
Quote: What are your sources?  "To know a thing you must study it." --Dagoth Ur 24 Sep 2006, 04:26
I find it hard that Che didn't ever read anything that trotsky wrote until just before his death...
His parents were known leftist and his father apparently had an extensive library of books that che read as a child. he had done enough research and reading that he was going to attempt a bioraphy of marx. (but went to bolivia instead) a quote from this website i found: Quote: http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:KiWphFmKlHQJ:www.socialistalternative.org/literature/che/introduction.html+che+guevara+and+trotsky&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1 I still don't know what to make of this...
Soviet cogitations: 2693
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2006, 08:59 Party Bureaucrat 24 Sep 2006, 04:53
Calling Mao-Tse-Tung a Trotskyist was a common slander of the Soviet revisionists (cf. Basmanov, for instance) after Stalin. It was a generic insult though and had no real connection with reality.
That excerpt you posted from a CWI (Trot) site is extremely disjointed and ambiguous, so I have a strong suspicion that it has been ripped out of context and what Che was really saying was something altogether different. I haven't found any quotes of Che that were a conclusively positive appraisal of Trotsky or Trotskyists as yet; to the contrary there are more pro-Stalin or even outright anti-Trotskyist quotes than you can shake a stick at. As I alluded to earlier in this thread, there was a pack of Trotskyists in Cuba in the Batista years who followed a line of "preventative nuclear strikes" on the part of China and the USSR to precipitate "world socialism" from the ashes of nuclear holocaust (hey, I couldn't make this shit up!) After the Revolution they demanded that the revolutionary junta immediately attack the US' Guantanamo Bay Naval base (towards the aforementioned ends), and goaded some locals into raiding the base. As can be imagined, this needlessly provocative action severely irritated Che who promptly suppressed them. I highly doubt Che had kind words for Trotsky, but if someone can dig up some information to the contrary I'd love to hear about it. Last edited by Greg A. Young on 24 Sep 2006, 05:07, edited 2 times in total.
"To know a thing you must study it." --Dagoth Ur 24 Sep 2006, 04:56
Quote: is this kinda like jobbyman calling everyone and everything that moves a trotskyist? 24 Sep 2006, 15:25
Quote: You stole my words, Chaz.
Soviet cogitations: 4394
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Jun 2004, 17:30 Politburo 25 Sep 2006, 10:45
Debray, Armando Hart, Haydée Santamaria and their children say that Che - while not converting over completly - came in to sympathy with Trotsky before he died.
They knew Che better than I did, but as I said, I don't know that much about Che. He was closer to a Maoist than anything else in my rather uneducated opinion of him. -TIG Alis Volat Propriis; Tiocfaidh Ar La; Proletarier Aller Länder, Vereinigt Euch!
25 Sep 2006, 14:18
Quote: most likely this is true... Quote: whether this is true or not, never mattered. his last year of his life there were less than 2 dozen people around him. his poilitcal views were inconsiquential. and all of his bolivian army are dead so we can't find out what was going thru his mind outside of the Bolivian Diary he kept.
Soviet cogitations: 2693
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2006, 08:59 Party Bureaucrat 26 Sep 2006, 09:14
Quote: Again, sources would help immensely. Coming from a Che-agnostic Marxist-Leninist perspective, I believe that this is utterly typical Trot splitter factionalist rightist nonsense until given any indication *whatsoever* otherwise. Thanks. "To know a thing you must study it." --Dagoth Ur 26 Sep 2006, 10:21
Soviet cogitations: 2693
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2006, 08:59 Party Bureaucrat 26 Sep 2006, 10:59
Yes, we've been discussing your "source" you just (re-)posted for the last two days. For Frag sake, can you let TIG answer for himself?
"To know a thing you must study it." --Dagoth Ur |
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