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Anti-semitism on the Left

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Soviet cogitations: 238
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 Jun 2011, 15:14
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 03 Dec 2014, 08:24
Havee3333333 wrote:
Umm... How about the German law of return for Volga Germans after the dissolution of the Soviet Union? I will only address this sentence because all the other stuff was comparing Israel to Nazi Germany - a comparison I hope you can understand isn't very accurate by the link below showing other countries with respective right of return regimes.

Israel citizenship can also be granted through naturalization by living in the country legally for 5 year.

As for Aliyah (Jewish right of return), here is a list of countries granting similar practices: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return

If you are going to continue this conversation, please explain why Israel's right of return should be given particular attention compared to other country's right of return regimes.
OK, I'm game.
From this article http://www.toponline.org/books/kits/germany%20in%20europe/handout10.pdf,
Quote:
A child is a German citizen if one parent is a
German citizen. This is true whether the child is
born in Germany or in another country. Inheriting
the German nationality of one’s parents is the only
way to become a German citizen automatically or
by right. However, the German government intends
to restrict the application of the
ius sanguinis
principle for Germans who live permanently in other
countries. It is not German government policy to
grant German citizenship to every person of
German descent or to encourage them to claim it
And non-Jewish immigrants in Israel, including a number of Mischlinge, have faced second class treatment. For example,http://www.jewishjournal.com/world/article/nonjewish_jews_endure_challenges_living_in_israel_20080104,http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Wanted-An-immigration-policy-for-non-Jews,http://www.wrmea.org/2000-april/non-jewish-immigrants-forcing-israel-to-choose-between-being-a-jewish-state-and-a-democracy.html. Also, just as there was a difference in Third Reich Germany between a citizen, whom had to be of German ethnicity, and a subject, whom could be any resident, there is a legal distinction in Israel between nationality, which only Jews may possess, and citizenship, which does not entitle as many civil rights http://mepc.org/journal/middle-east-policy-archives/jewish-nationality-status-basis-institutionalized-racial-discrimination-israel?print. So nice try, Havee. But I was still able to counter your points. Still,nice debate skills, by the way.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 237
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Jul 2014, 21:53
Ideology: Other Leftist
Pioneer
Post 03 Dec 2014, 12:27
Ignoring my arguments and repeating the arguments i have disproven, wont make your argument right.

Your last post is the same thing as the post i refuted. You simply repeated as to "pass over" my response. I will simply copy/paste what i said earlier.
Soviet cogitations: 236
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Jul 2012, 03:04
Ideology: None
Pioneer
Post 03 Dec 2014, 22:28
Jason24, there are many countries with respective right of return regimes. As an Armenian friend once told me, their right of return regime match's Israel's very closely. Greece also offers citizenship to virtually anyone in the Mediterranean who is Greek Orthodox Christian.

My girlfriend's great grandmother, who wasn't Jewish, was able to make Aliyah to Israel because her husband was Jewish, so this at least removes the claim that non-Jews are entirely excluded from this policy.


And most non-Jewish immigrants in Israel are Filipino or other Asian people. They are treated the same as every other country treats immigrants, so I don't know why that's being treated as a unique problem only existing in Israel.

As for the article you linked, I found a few problems with it:

The author's claims regarding "advantages Jews enjoy" compared to non-Jews is based on Israel's right of return law - which cover her first two points. The author says Jews are granted some sort of "special status" because of right of return that non-Jews cannot enjoy. As in my girlfriend's grandmother's case, a non-Jew can benefit from right of return. And I don't see how it is different from me having to live in a country like Armenia for 5 years while an ethnic Armenian can get automatic citizenship.
The author's last claim was, "The World Zionist Organization/Jewish Agency (Status) Law facilitates legal, economic, political and social discrimination against Arabs by delegating a wide range of national services to Zionist institutions serving only Jews," but I can also say, "One of X country's immigration agencies facilitates immigration of people ethnically related to X country." In the latter example, we have no relation at all to racism since it is only one of many agencies catering to immigration, and the same is the case with the World Zionist Organization - which organizes Jewish immigration to Israel while other agencies take care of non-Jewish immigration.
User avatar
Soviet cogitations: 237
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Jul 2014, 21:53
Ideology: Other Leftist
Pioneer
Post 04 Dec 2014, 02:57
AldoBrasil wrote:
As a side note, i want to stress a certain point.

While i have nothing to do to talk about a certain religious identity, i do have something to say about israel.

Israel is the parameter country to talk about religious opression. No, its not about preventing someone to worship a different god inside israeli lands (as some wahabi islamists do), but, when a certain religious group - under the banner of religious freedom - imposes their view on the life and peace of other people, this is the absolute oposite of religious freedom.

I might recognize that jews have a "religious dream" about a promised land. And i am ok with this. But as soon as other people, who believe in other faith, suffer the consequences of this "religious dream", then, they are being forced to surmount the practical consequences of a religion that is not theirs. This is not religious freedom. This is opression plain and simple. If we are going to support Israel in the name of jew religious freedom from prosecution, this becomes hypocritical when we do so while supporting the opression of another faith.

And thats the whole point. The only element that binds jew faith to that exact spot in the world is a religious identity. Remove judaism and they could very well have settled in the middle of antarctica (provided we did have the technology to do so).

Thats not much to say besides that. I fail to see how a militant israelist would argue above this point. Usually their rethorics revolve around religious concepts, as if we were forced to believe in what they do believe, and take this seriously.

Apart from that, i am usually a christian (not a good one at that) so from my point of view, i fail to see how Jesus would support the invasion of another country on such basis. Being practical is i believe he was, he might very well migrate to EUA due to the sheer cost of suffering that Israel produces to keep its existence as a country. He would say "Israel is wherever my brothers are, wherever my father ordains it to be, or wherever someone follows the will of my father, Israel is whatever people who love my father" or something to that effect. (If you want to know my standpoint as a person with a christian background)


Failed to answer.

AldoBrasil wrote:
Brazilians have been found to not share a very similar DNA. Lets split Brazil into thousands of countries right now ! Americans have been found to not share a very similar DNA, lets restart the american secession war !!

You should agree with me that this genetic centered concept of country is even more artificial than the illuminist concept of nation. Its something that could very well bind Nazis and Zionists in the same camp (They too believed in such genetics based nationalism). Besides that, i dont believe Jews share a very similar DNA (pls point me a really big genetic study that prove that and that can prove that we can split the world in historical-ethnical lines by simply using genetic material as the basis). Secondly, even if true, Jews are not much different from other semites. If a group of peoples in this world is related to the historical jews from before the diaspora, those are the arabians and afro-semites.

Actually, historically, the people who later would become the biblical hebrews (and later jews) are related to mesopotamic and arabian ancestry. There is even a tradition to attribute the sons of Noah to each of the countries of biblical traditions (Syrians, Nestorians, Ethiopians etc). So the genetic argument would point that Jews and Muslims are more related than Muslims and say, brazilians.


Failed to answer.

AldoBrasil wrote:
I believe jews - while talking among jews - justify Israel existence on religious ground. Something like "We are here because we are the people of God and God wants us to have this land". I find it hard to believe Jews use the prosecution or other kinds of more rational arguments to justify Israel existence while not talking to people who could be more criticial of their true thought. Genetics, history, persecution bla bla bla are good excuses to be used while in public or while being listened to by people who could think otherwise, while inside their minds they hould the same exceptionalist thinking that claims they are the only people who God loves. The people who are allowed even to commit crimes - if they are done against the "samaritans" - in the name of their exclusivity towards God. I do trully believe they believe God is theirs exclusively, because they are the people of the "promise", while us are devoid of the "true god" because we are the people of the "flesh".

Honestly, i find that concept of exclusiveness towards God the dangerest thing among Jews.

On another side note. I find your argument about Jews being 30% genetically different amusing !

If two persons are 30% genetically different, we might very well have not two separate ethnicities, but two whole different SPECIES. 30% is enough to turn a sardine into a dinossaur...

On genetics reasearch the element most used to track peoples are the mithocondrial DNA. And the differences among two groups are not in the order of 30% of the genetic material. Usually they are on the order of one or two genes... Because 30% is so much in genetics, this would yield another species, even another reign in nature. But, one or two genes doesnot give the kind of certainty you think they do. You could very well have a brazilian indian sharing the same gene with a aboriginal australian.


Failed to answer.

Everything was answered as "I am not going to get into a long emotional discussion about this."

Thats the rationality of the pro-Israel camp. When the questions are hard, avoid'em or call people "anti-semite".
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