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Lech Walesa's legacy

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Soviet cogitations: 216
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Jul 2013, 05:04
Ideology: Other Leftist
Pioneer
Post 08 May 2014, 03:02
The BBC has an interesting little article on Lech Walesa and his legacy. Walesa seems proud of his role in helping to end communism in Poland, although he makes a few remarks about some people in Poland now having much wealth while others do not. Unsurprisingly, the article is mostly positive about the new capitalist Poland although there are some mentions of the benefits Polish workers had under the old system, such as cheap holidays to the Polish countryside or the Black Sea coast.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27222992

What do comrades here think of the transition to capitalism in Poland? Has it been that successful? I have my doubts because it seems like many Poles still come to the U.S. to work and live and they say that there aren't that many jobs in Poland and many of the jobs that do exist pay very little.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2005, 20:08
Embalmed
Post 08 May 2014, 04:06
From what I understand, it's basically the EU's shop window state for Eastern European expansion, and without pouring shitloads of money into it, the whole thing would fall apart because it would become clear that no peripheral country in the EU actually benefits from its policies.

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The value of total European Union funds allocation for particular EU member states, according to the EU budget for 2014-2020, as agreed during the EU summit in Brussels on February 8, 2013 (source: The Chancellery of the Prime Minister (KPRM))

Detailed graphic: http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/G ... _Money.pdf

Though I'm not very familiar with their economic policies in the 90s, when Walesa's party in 1993 and Walesa himself in 1995 lost the election to former communists.
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"Bleh, i don't even know what i'm arguing for. What a stupid rant. Disregard what i wrote." - Loz
"Every time is gyros time" - Stalinista
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 02 Jun 2014, 03:12
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 09 Jun 2014, 09:21
I've been involved in political street campaigning - flying the Red Flag hammer and sickle - for a good number of years now.

The most intense period coincided with the largest influx of Poles and citizens from the Baltic States. We got regularly attacked by irate folks who really had nothing but venom for socialist ideals, who just wanted to portray "Capitalist Fairness". Unsuspecting by most Eastern European distortionists hacks, were the plethora of intelligent "be good" vibes.

God bless
Cailean
"When I feed the hungry, they call me a saint. When I ask why people are hungry, they call me a Communist." Dom Helder Camara, Brazilian Archbishop

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Dec 2011, 00:54
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 09 Jun 2014, 10:34
"Be Good Vibes"?
"A shiny bauble from Capitalism is worthless when the cost is Children & the Elderly going hungry, The Infirm & Sick dying because of Greed & Education reduced to a token few to placate the masses with Illusions of freedom."
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 09 Jun 2014, 13:06
Why are you surprised? Eastern Europe is by far the biggest reserve of fascists and reactionaries of all sorts, to the point that German Nazis can always count on at least doubling their numbers on any demonstrations or something by calling in a few buses from Poland or Czechia.

Meanwhile the statue of Lenin recently came back to Krakow, PL... as a yellow pissing fountain.

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Jul 2014, 11:33
Pioneer
Post 19 Jul 2014, 21:57
Loz wrote:
Meanwhile the statue of Lenin recently came back to Krakow, PL... as a yellow pissing fountain.

What a shame...
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 May 2004, 21:17
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Party Bureaucrat
Post 22 Jul 2014, 01:47
To be fair, Poland never really had a chance to actually be a country until after the collapse of the Soviet Union. The Poles had a chance at independence after WWII but the Soviet Union tore the carpet out from under their feet, so to speak, and kept them under the Iron Curtain. This undoubtedly fueled a lot of resentment, and it's a good bet that Communism is so hated by the Poles because they affiliate it directly with Russian occupation. I'm sure that had Poland not just gotten out of a brutal war and occupation with their other neighbors that they would have been a little more accepting of Communism, especially if it came to power in the country before the onslaught of WWII.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 02 Jun 2014, 03:12
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New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 22 Jul 2014, 05:42
I had some sympathy with the "poor little Poland" myth until you realise what a reactionary role that the ruling class in Poland has played. It was one of the 14 imperialist armies that invaded the Soviet Union immediately after the end of the World War 1 - not a promising start!

Of course, Poland's fate in WW2 was tragic, but prior to that the Polish Government had actively blocked Soviet attempts to forge alliances with European forces so that if one country in such an alliance was invaded by the Nazis, then all would retaliate! However, Poland point-blank refused to allow the Red Army transit through their territory. All in all it, along with the belligerent nature of Britain, France, Czech etc who wanted Hitler to invade Eastwards into the Soviet Union and refused to sign a pact - the Soviet Union was forced into the unthinkable and sign an non-aggression treaty with the very Fascist forces they had been battling in Spain a couple of years earlier!

Even in Socialist times, Poland continued (largely via the Catholic Church) to encourage reactionary anti-Socialist attitudes. With the advent of Capitalism - Lech Walesa's legacy - the reactionary attitudes are plain to see and writ large!

I do have some sympathies with Poland, who did feel tension with larger Russia (a tension that has gone on for centuries).

The the modern Poles I have met in Britain, along with some members of the Baltic States, have been some of the most reactionary people I have ever met! They dine out on anti-Socialism, and plenty anti-Soviet liberal Westerners believe their every word!
"When I feed the hungry, they call me a saint. When I ask why people are hungry, they call me a Communist." Dom Helder Camara, Brazilian Archbishop

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 02 Jun 2014, 03:12
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 22 Jul 2014, 05:50
As an aside, one of the leaders of the modern Communist party of Poland sought employment and some sanctuary in Scotland a few years back, and he was actively involved with the Communist Party in Scotland.

He enlightened us as to the hellish reactionary attitude of many especially young Poles. When he returned they were having a terrible time with the Capitalist authorities - their publications and website was being made illegal. We helped them to find a hosting solution for their website outside Poland so that they could continue to have an online presence!

Just for info.
"When I feed the hungry, they call me a saint. When I ask why people are hungry, they call me a Communist." Dom Helder Camara, Brazilian Archbishop

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2011, 14:10
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 22 Jul 2014, 09:22
kalinin wrote:
Of course, Poland's fate in WW2 was tragic, but prior to that the Polish Government had actively blocked Soviet attempts to forge alliances with European forces so that if one country in such an alliance was invaded by the Nazis, then all would retaliate! However, Poland point-blank refused to allow the Red Army transit through their territory. All in all it, along with the belligerent nature of Britain, France, Czech etc who wanted Hitler to invade Eastwards into the Soviet Union and refused to sign a pact - the Soviet Union was forced into the unthinkable and sign an non-aggression treaty with the very Fascist forces they had been battling in Spain a couple of years earlier!
Ironically, the Trots back then were attacking the Soviet Union for its overtures towards Poland.

"Now the tangle of imperialist rivalries in Europe is trying to straighten itself out in the form of a bloc pledged to defend Poland, and possibly Rumania, from Nazi attack. Should this arrangement work out—and that is still far from certain—we would begin to hear, no doubt about 'poor little Poland' under the Nazi heel. 'Poor little Poland'! Will the bosses of Britain, France, and this country call upon the workers to defend 'democracy' in Poland? Will the Stalinist patrioteers here and in those other countries echo this cry? We may be sure they will, if the bosses want it that way. But they will forget that in Poland the Ukrainian minority has been crushed, the Jews vilely persecuted, the Germans, Czechs, and other minorities kept in virtual bondage. They will conveniently forget that Poland has been and is a military, semi-Fascist dictatorship." - Socialist Appeal, April 7, 1939.

Then when the Soviets liberated the Ukrainian minority (in the context of a Nazi invasion of Poland which the Soviets worked to ensure would not bring the Wehrmacht as close to the USSR as would otherwise have been the case) the Trot line changed, because Stalin was incapable of doing anything good.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Jul 2014, 21:53
Ideology: Other Leftist
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Post 22 Jul 2014, 16:00
How could be so ? Trotsky was one of the proponents of Polish invasion (But russians were defeated).
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2011, 14:10
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 22 Jul 2014, 22:38
AldoBrasil wrote:
How could be so ? Trotsky was one of the proponents of Polish invasion (But russians were defeated).
The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

The Soviets didn't seek to invade Poland, they knew the Nazis wanted to invade the country and wanted a non-aggression treaty with the Soviets. The Soviet leadership, which had tried and failed to conclude a defensive treaty with Poland beforehand, stipulated that Nazi forces could not cross the Curzon line. That was the agreement. When the Nazis invaded the authority of the Polish state collapsed and the Nazis were in a position to claim that, with the authority of the Polish state no longer in existence, the Curzon line was invalid and they could go right up to the Soviet border. This was the basis of the Soviet advance into eastern Poland, which was in fact western Byelorussia and Ukraine.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Jul 2014, 21:53
Ideology: Other Leftist
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Post 22 Jul 2014, 22:39
I am talking about things that happened way earlier than molotov-ribbentrop.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Mar 2011, 14:10
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 23 Jul 2014, 12:07
And I'm talking about 1939.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 02 Jan 2015, 07:22
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 11 Jan 2015, 03:59
Piccolo wrote:
What do comrades here think of the transition to capitalism in Poland? Has it been that successful? I have my doubts because it seems like many Poles still come to the U.S. to work and live and they say that there aren't that many jobs in Poland and many of the jobs that do exist pay very little.


I agree with you, ie: it's not so great - total sell out by the capitalist solidarity Catholic stooges

Like, why do so many Poles come to UK to wash dishes, clean homes of the wealthy etc..... ? hardly a success
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 11 Jan 2015, 14:44
The point is that had they had the means back then the whole of Poland would have emigrated to clean toilets ( not only for hard cash but for toilet paper as well which you had to wait in line for in PRL ). Instead they couldn't freely travel even to other socialist countries.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 04 Aug 2004, 20:49
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Embalmed
Post 11 Jan 2015, 15:11
I am not allowed to freely travel the world because I am currently pretty poor. Same difference, as they say
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"Phil Spector is haunting Europe" -Dr. Karl H. Marx
Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 12 Jan 2015, 15:43
You're allowed to, you just can't afford it. Anyway PRL was piss-poor even by Eastern Block standards.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 03 Nov 2015, 11:29
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 16 Nov 2015, 14:28
To read about a man who, most likely, was a commie agent (snitching on his fellow trade union "Solidarity" komrades) on a forum dedicated to discussion of communism. Priceless

I, humble Absurd, await more discussion like this.
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Soviet cogitations: 5137
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 08 Nov 2007, 06:31
Embalmed
Post 16 Nov 2015, 15:57
Absurd wrote:
To read about a man who, most likely, was a commie agent (snitching on his fellow trade union "Solidarity" komrades) on a forum dedicated to discussion of communism. Priceless

I, humble Absurd, await more discussion like this.


Why not join them while you wait? Are you polish btw?
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