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Greece-the weakest link of the EU chain?

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Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 11 Feb 2012, 13:42
As we know,Greece is the worst-standing EU country right now,bankrupt and at the mercy of EU (particularly German) imperialism.
But the important thing for us is that Greece (unlike,say,Ireland) has a very strong communist movement,indeed the KKE was and,from what i know,is the only major "Western" communist party which didn't drift into "Eurocommunist" and social-democratic waters, instead choosing to stay with the more "traditional" lines,although it certainly cannot be held free from criticism.

How feasible is the assumption that Greece is now the weakest link in the EU chain,to borrow from the classical ML terminology,the link where all contradictions of capitalism (Greece is in a similar situation to Italy,Portugal and Spain) are brought to an extreme,where they are most strongly pronounced?

I am hoping that these,objective factors,coupled with a strong communist movement,will make Greece the first dictatorship of the proletariat in the EU-area. The EU and the comprador Greek government has announced more austerity measures this year,which will most certainly result in further intensification of class stuggle.

What are your opinions on the prospects of a revolution in Greece?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Feb 2005, 02:51
Party Bureaucrat
Post 12 Feb 2012, 13:27
In time of crisis, the bourgeoisie may turn to Fascism as a last resort, in fact, the recently resigned minister for transport and infrastructure, Makis Voridis, is a bona fide fascist who founded the Hellenic Front. In addition, decision has been made towards the end of the last year to purchase 400 M1A1 Abrams tanks from the US.

There is a very good chance that in the face of intensifying class antagonism, the bourgeoisie will use force to cling on to power. It could get bloody.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Jul 2006, 04:49
Ideology: Juche
Old Bolshevik
Post 15 Feb 2012, 10:40
Quote:
What are your opinions on the prospects of a revolution in Greece?


If there is any revolution in Greece, NATO (and maybe Russia) will fight it tooth-and-nail, as such a thing would embolden other revolutionaries around the world. I can see them already drawing up plans to shove the "economic medicine" down Greek throats at rifle-point.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Oct 2007, 15:55
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Post 15 Feb 2012, 19:18
Misuzu wrote:
If there is any revolution in Greece, NATO (and maybe Russia) will fight it tooth-and-nail, as such a thing would embolden other revolutionaries around the world. I can see them already drawing up plans to shove the "economic medicine" down Greek throats at rifle-point.


I agree, but maybe as a last resort. NATO would probably arm the opposition or have Greece's army remove any commies from taking power.
We have beaten you to the moon, but you have beaten us in sausage making.- Nikita Khrushchev
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Sep 2011, 11:23
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Post 15 Feb 2012, 21:42
Sure they will, but I don't know how many oppositionists will there be by then
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhQKmixO8MA
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Feb 2005, 02:51
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Post 15 Feb 2012, 22:47
ckkomel wrote:
Sure they will, but I don't know how many oppositionists will there be by then

When there's money, there's a way, so I guess it's a good thing that those who sponsored the reactionary forces in the original civil war are now out of money.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Sep 2011, 11:23
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Post 15 Feb 2012, 23:37
James Kennedy wrote:
When there's money, there's a way, so I guess it's a good thing that those who sponsored the reactionary forces in the original civil war are now out of money.

For the bourgoise state at least, because the "national" bourgoisie,as the real sponsor, has got (and getting) even richer out of the people's plight and the drop of the wages, as in any accumulation crisis. Fortunately, this time there is no other alternative management option as in the past, with the third way, or keynsianic policies, so the capitalist crisis will turn into political world wide, with the people seeking the way out of bourgoise politics. This is an opportunity for the movement, so the peoples to transform this capitalist crisis into a working class' & people's victory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhQKmixO8MA
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 23 Dec 2011, 01:28
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Post 16 Feb 2012, 01:19
According to RT

Quote:
Why can’t the Greeks accept reason? Do they know something we don’t? Yes, they do.
They know what’s really at stake and they are not taking it. They see through the arguments from the European Commission, the European Central Bank, the IMF, the World Bank. Most of all, they see through the ideological tear-gas smokescreen their banker government is spreading to obfuscate their real intentions.
But hey, Greece IS broke, right? The state has completely overspent, mismanaged, spoiled. It has no income anymore. Austerity is the only possible answer!

Is it? We have been bombarded over the last three years with factoids about the lazy Greek worker, the corrupt civil service, the massive tax dodging by all Greeks. Surely, that needs to end.
Well, point taken. Like in any other country, the Greek authorities need to spend taxpayers’ money efficiently at the service of its people. If that state can not organize sufficient income, austerity is the only solution. Greece is already doing just that. With some 36 per cent of GNP spent on salaries, it is one of the lowest of the EU. Some 11 per cent of the workforce is in civil service, again one of the lowest in the EU. Also one of the lowest paid.

So the Greek state is poor, the Greek are poor, but Greece is not … In fact Greece is filthy rich. Some facts.
Greek shipping companies own some 4,100 ships, 16 per cent of the world’s merchant fleet. In 2010 their annual income rose to 15.4 billion euro. On this, they pay next-to-no taxes. The Greek fiscal authorities cannot check their accounts. They are in Switzerland or London anyway.

The Greek Orthodox Church owns stock in the National Bank, hotels, parking lots, convenience stores, businesses, forests, mountains. It is the biggest landowner of the country. Most of this income is tax free.

Some 560 billion euro are stashed away in foreign banks. That is double the Greek GNP.

There’s more. France, one of the EU countries so eager to penalize Greece for its “bad behavior” sold 3 billion euro of navy ships and helicopters to the country in 2009. That’s right, in the middle of the crisis. In fact, defense is the only state department that does not have to cut down. The European Commission seems to have a blind spot there.


The left is organized in Greece, so I think this post is quite timely Loz and the situation should be watched carefully, as James said, the bourgeois are readying themselves for something big where the confrontation seems inevitable now.
"The present is a time of struggle; the future is ours."
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Feb 2005, 02:51
Party Bureaucrat
Post 16 Feb 2012, 11:26
Serious questions, is the Greek left actually prepared for possible armed conflict and is it ready to takeover the state machinery when the opportunity arises?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Oct 2007, 15:55
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Post 16 Feb 2012, 17:04
Short answer, no. Armed leftists versus the military might of NATO or perhaps the Greek army? Don't think so...
We have beaten you to the moon, but you have beaten us in sausage making.- Nikita Khrushchev
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 16 Feb 2012, 17:20
The Greek army is not going to defend this state anymore. Even the cops have already threatened to arrest EU/IMF representatives who are in Greece to supervise implemantation of the austerity measures. Also it's not armed leftists, it's more or less an entire population.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Oct 2007, 15:55
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
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Post 16 Feb 2012, 17:30
Doesn't really matter if the police and security forces are on the side of the general population. The West could put economic/military might in the hands of some right wing figure in the government or military or intervene themselves.

The only way that the left will be able to grab power in Greece is if revolution had spread throughout Europe. But who knows... It could be the spark that sets the fire.
We have beaten you to the moon, but you have beaten us in sausage making.- Nikita Khrushchev
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 16 Feb 2012, 17:36
EU victory is far from guaranteed if they do intervene. Protracted People's War, do you know it? Vietnam? Iraqi resistance? Taliban? Besides it's not like they'd have to hold out for more than say, 2 months, until Italy and Spain or Portugal or Ireland collapse.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Oct 2007, 15:55
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Party Member
Post 16 Feb 2012, 17:44
Greece isn't Vietnam, Greece isn't Iraq, Greece isn't Afghanistan. There aren't any dense forests or jungles to hide in, only cities to riot against the invading NATO "peacekeepers".

Not to mention Greece is surrounded by NATO countries (Albania, Turkey, Bulgaria), it wouldn't make it that hard for troops to get in and put resistance down. They also have a great coastline for Britain, France, and Italy to park their warships along the coast.
We have beaten you to the moon, but you have beaten us in sausage making.- Nikita Khrushchev
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 16 Feb 2012, 17:55
Soviet192491 wrote:
Greece isn't Vietnam, Greece isn't Iraq, Greece isn't Afghanistan. There aren't any dense forests or jungles to hide in, only cities to riot against the invading NATO "peacekeepers".


lol that comment is really cute because it's really ignorant. Greece is almost exclusively mountains. The Greeks have a lot of experience with guerilla fighting (national liberation war, anti-fascist resistance, civil war...) and the terrain is perfect for this.

Quote:
Not to mention Greece is surrounded by NATO countries (Albania, Turkey, Bulgaria), it wouldn't make it that hard for troops to get in and put resistance down.


Turkey can't afford to start a two front war with Greece and the Kurds. And somehow I'm really not afraid of Albania and Bulgaria.

Quote:
They also have a great coastline for Britain, France, and Italy to park their warships along the coast.


I'd be surprised if Britain, France, and Italy could come up with enough warships to effectively monitor the twelfth longest coastline in the world (8498 mi) with 1400 islands.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Oct 2007, 15:55
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Party Member
Post 16 Feb 2012, 18:29
Mabool wrote:
lol that comment is really cute because it's really ignorant. Greece is almost exclusively mountains.


What I was getting at was the examples you had given before. Vietnam and the Taliban had support from surrounding countries, not to mention resources from other countries to fight an armed resistance.

You must also take into consideration that Greece is an industrialized country, not a third world country where a majority of people live in the countryside.

Mabool wrote:
Greece is almost exclusively mountains.


Geography is irrelevant when it comes to an industrialized country since a majority of the population live in cities.

Mabool wrote:
The Greeks have a lot of experience with guerilla fighting (national liberation war, anti-fascist resistance, civil war...) and the terrain is perfect for this.


I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that we were in the 1940's. I'm sure the anti-facists/imperialists will receive Soviet support.

Mabool wrote:
Turkey can't afford to start a two front war with Greece and the Kurds.


I wasn't aware Turkey was at war... *sarcasm* I suppose Syria and Iraq are at war with the Kurds as well.


It's an insurrection, not a war. The Kurds aren't a major threat to Turkey per se, just a threat to stability in the east.

Mabool wrote:
I'd be surprised if Britain, France, and Italy could come up with enough warships to effectively monitor the twelfth longest coastline in the world (8498 mi) with 1400 islands.


So I suppose the leftists will supply ships to all these islands to throw the tourists out and form a socialist state?
We have beaten you to the moon, but you have beaten us in sausage making.- Nikita Khrushchev
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Feb 2005, 02:51
Party Bureaucrat
Post 17 Feb 2012, 08:17
Mabool wrote:
EU victory is far from guaranteed if they do intervene. Protracted People's War, do you know it? Vietnam? Iraqi resistance? Taliban? Besides it's not like they'd have to hold out for more than say, 2 months, until Italy and Spain or Portugal or Ireland collapse.

This is pure adventurism, underestimating your enemy is usually the first step towards defeat. All the examples you mentioned involved very mature organisations that had years experience, along with porous borders through which foreign support could flow in, while Greece is surrounded by NATO countries and the Greek left is experienced in running battle against cops in cities. Not saying KKE will not succeed for certain, but failure is certain if they are not adequately prepared.

Soviet192491 wrote:
Greece isn't Vietnam, Greece isn't Iraq, Greece isn't Afghanistan. There aren't any dense forests or jungles to hide in, only cities to riot against the invading NATO "peacekeepers".

Not to mention Greece is surrounded by NATO countries (Albania, Turkey, Bulgaria), it wouldn't make it that hard for troops to get in and put resistance down. They also have a great coastline for Britain, France, and Italy to park their warships along the coast.

One constraint NATO face is the high value on human lives within their own countries, if sufficient amount of flagged drapped coffins can be sent back, it will be difficult for them to justify their involvements to their own people.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Resident Soviet
Post 17 Feb 2012, 20:54
Mabool wrote:
lol that comment is really cute because it's really ignorant. Greece is almost exclusively mountains. The Greeks have a lot of experience with guerilla fighting (national liberation war, anti-fascist resistance, civil war...) and the terrain is perfect for this.


How confident are you though Mabool that the Greek people will be as fanatical as the Vietnamese (for instance)? Vietnam was a colony where life was cheap and the ideas of socialism and Vietnamese nationalism were powerful enough to cause women to run at American helicopters with grenades with the pins pulled out. Would Greeks, who appear to have enjoyed several decades of Western European-style living conditions, be willing to do the same? Please correct me if I'm wrong (you have direct connections to the country after all), but in my view Greece today is not Greece in 1944.

Mabool wrote:
Turkey can't afford to start a two front war with Greece and the Kurds. And somehow I'm really not afraid of Albania and Bulgaria.


Mabool wrote:
I'd be surprised if Britain, France, and Italy could come up with enough warships to effectively monitor the twelfth longest coastline in the world (8498 mi) with 1400 islands.


It's not about the strength of Albania's army, or about the West Europeans' naval strength. It's about the potential staging areas for heavy NATO military forces, along with the US navy in the Eastern Mediterranean. James made a good point about extracting a sufficiently high cost, and even the idea of having to invade an ally and fellow 'Western' country might be a bit difficult to tell the Western public about at first, but as I postulated elsewhere, only if the Western military alliance is stretched to the breaking point and their economies are literally beginning to collapse, they will put in the effort to crush Greece before it becomes an example for the rest of Europe.
"The thing about capitalism is that it sounds awful on paper and is horrendous in practice. Communism sounds wonderful on paper and when it was put into practice it was done pretty well for what they had to work with." -MiG
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Sep 2011, 11:23
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 17 Feb 2012, 21:43
Talking about war is somehow quite irrelevant. There are a few steps that must be taken first, in order fot this danger even to appear, as a far propability. These scenarios are mostly used to terrorise the people. Here they start to bring up indirectly the civil war.. Let them bring it on if they want, but all these are just propaganda tricks.
The popular movement first, must increase and take the power, otherwise greek bourgoise bosses alone will be enough, than repeating a libyan scenario for Greece.
After all don;t forget that every nation no matter if it is independant at the level of juche, is always taking advantage of the inter-imperialist conflicts. Even without nukes who would attack dprk, with china around?

But, soviet78, being a Greek, I can tell you that if at a point we end up in a situation where an organised greek people's authority faces a threat from a foreign imperialist invasion, then yes, don't be surprised to see that greece 1944 is not that far away from todays Greece. And this has not to do with the national identity of the greeks only, but I think with every people that is about to loose the control and sovereignty it has just aquired.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhQKmixO8MA
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