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Sell me on Stalin

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Soviet cogitations: 53
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Jan 2012, 02:34
Pioneer
Post 15 Mar 2012, 01:35
Quote:
The revolution degenerated in the 1920s due to it's isolation in a backward country, in accordance with Marxist theory. Stalin was the personification of that, "the individual supply to meet the collective demand" as Trotsky put it when describing Hitler.

But history is dialectical and so Stalin did play a huge role in speeding up the degeneration of the revolution in the 1920s.


the newly formed Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was falling apart. Four years of protracted civil war had ruined the economy and sapped the morale of Russia's war-weary people, whom had as early as 1917 expected an end to a brutal world war, and instead had gotten a civil war in it's place.

With an already backwards economy in shambles, and the N.E.P wearing thin(to the point where Trotsky was calling for collectivization of farmland), Stalin acted, albeit too rashly, and proceeded with rapid collectivization, in conjunction with a heavy industrialization program to bring the nation out of economic misery and onto the world stage as an economic power house.

Although I do agree that the death and suffering under Stalin's rule could have been largely avoided if a more mild economic path could have been chosen, the realities were grim even then. For better or worse, the heavy industrial output and other economic reforms gave the Soviet Union a real edge against the Nazi war machine, ultimately ending in the destruction of the Third Reich and with it, the almost total destruction of the world fascist movement.

It's easy to criticize Stalin as the man whom degenerated an entire socialist revolution. But the thing was, the revolution was doomed by 1924 when it came to fulfilling Red October's goals. The people's aspirations by then were dead, and all the civil war did was allow a ruthless man like Stalin to rise to power in the first place.
JAM
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 172
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 Mar 2012, 02:37
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 15 Mar 2012, 02:25
Sowjetunion wrote:
It's easy to criticize Stalin as the man whom degenerated an entire socialist revolution. But the thing was, the revolution was doomed by 1924 when it came to fulfilling Red October's goals. The people's aspirations by then were dead, and all the civil war did was allow a ruthless man like Stalin to rise to power in the first place.


How can you call him the man whom degenerated an entire socialist revolution when he was the main responsible for the biggest expansion of socialism throughout the world in the history of socialism? (After the II World War) As far as i can see he was the most successful socialist leader of socialism's history, maybe that's why he is so often attacked within and outside the communist movement. In my opinion, "Socialism in one country" was a matter of realpolitik and Stalin was the personification of realpolitik as Kissinger mentioned in his book "Diplomacy". Stalin knew very well that USSR after the Civil War was in no condition of affording a world revolution. The USSR own existence was at stake how could they support another revolution? Besides, they had no resources or international political atmosphere to support communist revolutions throughout Europe. When Stalin had those resources and a good international political atmosphere he supported the chinese revolution, the korean and helped to establish other communist regimes in Eastern Europe. If he had followed the world revolution idea probably the USSR wouldn't have lasted more than some years.
"If I could control Hollywood, I could control the world." -Joseph Stalin
Soviet cogitations: 53
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Jan 2012, 02:34
Pioneer
Post 15 Mar 2012, 12:15
Although it is fascinating to wonder how history might have gone had Trotsky ousted Stalin and ruled the USSR instead, I do still agree that Stalin, for his time, was the ideal man for the job.

He managed to successfully consolidate the socialist revolution, however degenerated, in Russia and protect it from foreign enemies, such as the Nazis.

That's why he is loved by some people, as an example of a strong, yet dictatorial leader whom 'saved' Russia from destruction.

Whatever the consequences of his actions, I do agree that it was amazing that after ruling an isolated Russia for many decades, he finally managed to spread the revolution to the entirety of eastern Europe and even northern Korea all on his own accord.

All in all, he was a deeply flawed man whom at the same time can be credited with saving Russia and making the motherland great.
JAM
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 172
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 Mar 2012, 02:37
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 15 Mar 2012, 16:36
Actually i've found a website which claims that Stalin killed 100 million people. Well, if we look at the demographics numbers of USSR during his rule we are able to see that the population actually grew from 148 million to 197 million before the nazi invasion. If that figure (100 M) was correct the russian people would have been 48 million instead of almost 200 million. On the other hand, we can see a decline in russian population during the II World War by 23-24 million. So, if Stalin had killed 50, 20, 10 or even 5 million we would be able to see it on the demographic evolution graphic of the USSR as we are able to see the decline during the war. This only shows how pathetic those anti-stalin claims are.

Here are the numbers from Wikipedia:

January 1926 : 148,656,000
January 1937: 162,500,000
January 1939: 168,524,000
June 1941: 196,716,000
January 1946: 170,548,000
January 1951: 182,321,000
January 1959: 209,035,000

Soviet casualties during the war: 23,400,000
"If I could control Hollywood, I could control the world." -Joseph Stalin
Soviet cogitations: 2051
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 24 Jun 2011, 08:37
Party Bureaucrat
Post 15 Mar 2012, 16:41
JAM wrote:
Actually i've found a website which claims that Stalin killed 100 million people. Well, if we look at the demographics numbers of USSR during his rule we are able to see that the population actually grew from 148 million to 197 million before the nazi invasion. If that figure (100 M) was correct the russian people would have been 48 million instead of almost 200 million. On the other hand, we can see a decline in russian population during the II World War by 23-24 million. So, if Stalin had killed 50, 20, 10 or even 5 million we would be able to see it on the demographic evolution graphic of the USSR as we are able to see the decline during the war. This only shows how pathetic those anti-stalin claims are.

Here are the numbers from Wikipedia:

January 1926 : 148,656,000
January 1937: 162,500,000
January 1939: 168,524,000
June 1941: 196,716,000
January 1946: 170,548,000
January 1951: 182,321,000
January 1959: 209,035,000

Soviet casualties during the war: 23,400,000



For added fun, apply the same methodology to post 1989 russia and see how well capitalist reform has done.
Soviet America is Free America!

Under communism, there is no freedom; you are not free to live in poverty, be homeless, to be without an education, to starve, or to be without a job
JAM
[+-]
Soviet cogitations: 172
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 Mar 2012, 02:37
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 15 Mar 2012, 17:37
runequester wrote:


For added fun, apply the same methodology to post 1989 russia and see how well capitalist reform has done.


Those are the numbers the capitalists don't want to see. The capitalist reform ruined Russia completely and the ones (mainly from western countries) who encouraged the transition to the capitalist system promising prosperity to the russian people under the new system just didn't care about the tragedy that was. The russians were not only fooled by their own politicians but also by the western propaganda which aimed to destroy communism in Russia in order to weak the communist parties of the West. They didn't care if russians were living bad or not after the fall, all they wanted was to see the collapse of the soviet system just to say: "communism didn't work". If you look at the numbers you see that was a real tragedy: unemployment, misery, the astonishing rising of social inequalities, economic downturn. The russian state almost collapsed in the 90's and i think this says it all. And they even have the nerve to talk trash about Stalin.

It's funny to see that every time i show those demographic numbers to someone in youtube who is talking trash about Stalin they always shut up and the conversation ends right there.
"If I could control Hollywood, I could control the world." -Joseph Stalin
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