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Religious Dialogue

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Soviet cogitations: 2051
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 24 Jun 2011, 08:37
Party Bureaucrat
Post 28 Mar 2012, 02:56
What is telling is that Ben Stein based his attacks on the theory of evolution on a question about abiogenesis, which has exactly zero percent to do with evolution.

He repeated this in several interviews too.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Jul 2009, 10:14
Komsomol
Post 28 Mar 2012, 08:18
runequester wrote:
What is telling is that Ben Stein based his attacks on the theory of evolution on a question about abiogenesis, which has exactly zero percent to do with evolution.

He repeated this in several interviews too.


Ben Stein is clinically insane. I remember walking into his movie on evolution years back. He basically used the Nazi's to discredit atheism which is the dumbest argument ever conceived. He literally had a scene where he said "look at these terrible death camps, if only the Nazi's were religious." I face-palmed hard. Perhaps that boring game show he hosted rotted his brain.
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Soviet cogitations: 2051
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 24 Jun 2011, 08:37
Party Bureaucrat
Post 28 Mar 2012, 08:53
Red_Bull wrote:

Ben Stein is clinically insane. I remember walking into his movie on evolution years back. He basically used the Nazi's to discredit atheism which is the dumbest argument ever conceived. He literally had a scene where he said "look at these terrible death camps, if only the Nazi's were religious." I face-palmed hard. Perhaps that boring game show he hosted rotted his brain.


someone should send him a Wehrmacht belt buckle
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
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Post 28 Mar 2012, 11:06
runequester wrote:
This is getting tedious, so let's just cut it short.

No miracle has ever been tested, proven and reproduced.

Nobody has ever come back from the dead.

Nobody has ever found evil spirits in animals or good spirits in a river.

Nobody has ever healed by laying of hands.

Nobody has ever provided proof why their specific invisible man is the one I should believe in, over all the other invisible men.

See the problem most theists delude themselves into thinking is that they have knowledge (atheists fall into the same ludicrous trap but that's a whole other matter). Proving God is literally the destruction of faith.

The Mighty O wrote:
In the past 24 hours 70,000 Africans have died. Now please tell me how those 70,000 Africans all died because of Gods allmighty will and power, what exactly did they to to piss off the allmighty??

What did they do to apparently piss of humanity because we're the ones killing them. It's so strange to see people blame something they believe doesn't exist. I mean I get the rhetorical intent but it's still silly.

Isn't God supposed all mighty and all caring? Yet he lets all these people die and suffer in squalor?
Please explain this to me.[/quote]
What benefit to man would there be in the physical interference of God? We already piss away too much time obsessing about Him so He's not going to give us good reason to waste more. We have the tools to create heaven or hell, it is our choice. Blaming others for your choices is childish.

The Mighty O wrote:
Fine i'll use a different example; in the bible it says God created Earth, Adam and Eve and all the animals and plants in 7 days. Yet science/common sense has proven:

Do not be so arrogant as to proclaim such things as common sense. If it was common sense science wouldn't have needed to prove it.

The Mighty O wrote:
A. The planet obviously wasn't created by God in 7 days, more like 4 Billion years.

The planet was created in far less than 4 billion years. But yes you've exposed yet another example of the worthlessness of literalism. For fuсk's sake what is a day before the earth ever completed its first axial rotation? Why would Allah use our definition of Day for that matter?

Actually the seven days thing is something I've been thinking about lately and wondered if it doesn't mean that we're still in one of the Days of Activity/Creation and that the Day of Rest is actually the "End Times". I'm not putting any force behind that statement it's just an interesting view.

The Mighty O wrote:
B. Evolution proves that God didn't just magic up some humans in his spare time for shits and giggles, they evolved from simpler organisms like all the animals have done aswel.

Why wouldn't evolution be the creative force of life as Diamat is the creative force of existence? It's so small to think that an infinite being would simply *poof* things into existence. I know this is typical of many religious people's view of Creation but that's just another indication of the shallowness of their minds. Or rather their refusal to tred into the deeper waters of their faith is a product of fear and indoctrination in anti-thought theism.

The Mighty O wrote:
C. We have a few theories that can explain how life began on Earth. Funny how none of them have 'God did it' in them.

What are you talking about? There are loads of shitty theories that involve God as the primary/direct genesis of life. Being able to explain something doesn't make you correct. The stupidest thing about creationists is that whatever science discovers as the origin of life can easily be attributed to God. It's insane that they try to resist with their own pseudo-science.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
] I don't mind his beliefs, I'm just completely unconvinced in them, and I do not like he apologizes for religion and almost tries to cater his ideas to the condescending atheists. But, it's clear he has put thought into them, and I respect that. You atheists like to pretend that us religious believers believe in God "just because".

You don't "mind" my beliefs? Well that is certainly clear as you dismissed them out of hand without thinking at all. You explicitly refused to believe that bourgeoisie ideology effects religious action and the issues religious institutions choose to pursue. This is not only absurd to the max but displays a deep ignorance of the historical development of the religious community through great shifts in society. You also refused to acknowledge capitalism's effect on your faith and on the faith of others. No all you did was insult me, refuse to answer my questions and set up strawmen against me.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Apr 2007, 18:04
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 28 Mar 2012, 14:42
I like many of the points you make Dagoth, but if I'd follow your beliefs, there'd be no point in believing in God. I myself am an atheist and I don't really see any reason why I should believe in God in the first place. Anyone's free to do so, but I do have a big problem with children being forced to believe (not saying that religion is the only thing that does that), mostly because I've had some personal troubles with that. Oh well, maybe I'm beginning to sound liberal. I still think we need socialist theology.
Soviet cogitations: 124
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 19 Mar 2012, 00:06
Unperson
Post 28 Mar 2012, 15:01
Comrade Kaiwen, Christ puts you in a category that does not include these persons: "Hypocrites,!! you (greedy capitalist and prayerful communist terrorists) worship me with your lips but your hearts are far away from me" referring to some of those who believe in God. Kim Jong un is a child of God but South Korean Park Chung Hee and incumbent South Korean President are also a children of God, according to my good, liberal, sophisticated God who hates goody-goody prayerful persons who engage themselves in gruesome ill wishes. And they're religious. The heck, no wonder there is poverty because of these people who pray one set of rosary to have their gruesome ill wishes granted..And it is written in the Bible..."those gruesome illwishes.." (..mga karumal-dumal na panalangin,in Tagalog). Our very own NoyNoy Simeon Aquino, President of the Philippines, Jejomar Binay, Johnny Ponce Enrile, ex-President Marcos, Imelda.Cory and Benigno Aquino Sr. and Fidel Ramos and Bongbong Marcos are well-wishers. If Joma is a well-wisher I should have joined the CPP-NPA, right or wrong, because communism is the most attractive economic system to me. The problem is that Jose Maria Sison together with his wife are gruesome illwishers. So I led the activist PKP (Moscow oriented instead because I will end up dead anyway if I join CPP-NPA). You can prove that by their bombing of the Plaza Miranda and assassination of other communist leaders. Genocides and massacres are part and parcel of his gruesome illwishes. Watch the movie DAMIEN, it tells a story of a child whose life was devoted to gruesome illwishes from creating arson to burn churches to bombing of Afghan markets. As my good God has always told me, "it's easy for the devil to play goodie-goodie or holie holie, only to prove that good is evil, evil is good but behind all of these are gruesome illwishes and illprayers, 90-95% of which are fulfilled by their patron Saint, Saint Sebastian.." in direct communication with my good, liberal, sophisticated God..The gruesome illwishers want to start the 3rd world war so that they drag us to their death. Life is beautiful, life is God-saved, Life behaves responsibly in the workplace, Life is a child of God. Life has not time to gruesome ill wish because she is preoccupied with work as executive in a bank. As my God-saved father in law has taunted me, "We (PNP) are busy making love to our wives. We have no time to wish ill. Maybe it's you (me, because I have ADD
)" to which I replied, well, who gave me ADD. Not my good God. Not the devil..BUT the God-saved sisters of _____.!@@@@##$$@!@!!!???????
Last edited by AlmaAta on 28 Mar 2012, 19:07, edited 20 times in total.
Soviet cogitations: 2051
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 24 Jun 2011, 08:37
Party Bureaucrat
Post 28 Mar 2012, 16:13
Dagoth Ur wrote:
See the problem most theists delude themselves into thinking is that they have knowledge (atheists fall into the same ludicrous trap but that's a whole other matter). Proving God is literally the destruction of faith.


Your last sentence is interesting to me. Can you elaborate this?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 24 Feb 2012, 23:00
Ideology: Other Leftist
Pioneer
Post 28 Mar 2012, 17:11
@Dagoth you make some good points (also I didn’t mean to sound arrogant), but what I was trying to show was how it grinds my gears with these fundamentalist arguments that can suddenly change to ‘well god guided evolution’ yet it doesn’t say it in the bible but they then contradict themselves by talking about other parts of the bible literally, word for word.
Also Dagoth, with no disrespect, As I am unknowledgeable on the Qur’an how does it describe the creation of the Earth. Is it similar to the Bible in which Allah creates everything or do you believe in something else?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 28 Mar 2012, 22:48
runequester wrote:
Your last sentence is interesting to me. Can you elaborate this?

Faith is a matter of belief and is measured by the level of belief. As knowledge about God was discovered you would be destroying faith because you cannot believe in something you Know. Claiming to Know God is sinful arrogance for the faithful.

The Mighty O wrote:
@Dagoth you make some good points (also I didn’t mean to sound arrogant), but what I was trying to show was how it grinds my gears with these fundamentalist arguments that can suddenly change to ‘well god guided evolution’ yet it doesn’t say it in the bible but they then contradict themselves by talking about other parts of the bible literally, word for word.

Well yes literalists are often hypocrites. They do not uphold slavery anymore despite there being more than one literal justification for it. It's always mystified me why fundamentalists don't seize "Natural Forces/Laws" as being the way Allah created existence. Muslims seem to be smarter about this and frequently use science to justify their theology.

The Mighty O wrote:
Also Dagoth, with no disrespect, As I am unknowledgeable on the Qur’an how does it describe the creation of the Earth. Is it similar to the Bible in which Allah creates everything or do you believe in something else?

No Allah is the Genesis. I believe this but I see no contradiction in science.

Sorry I forgot Comrade Kaiwen:

Comrade Kaiwen wrote:
I like many of the points you make Dagoth, but if I'd follow your beliefs, there'd be no point in believing in God.

There is a point. It fulfills my emotional and philosophical needs. Also Allah thanks those who keep faith in Him. It's not that I want the benefits of the thanks but to satisfy Allah which is the greatest reward.

Comrade Kaiwen wrote:
I myself am an atheist and I don't really see any reason why I should believe in God in the first place.

If you find a reason Allah wil be pleased. It's not my job to convince you of Allah and in fact I wouldn't be so arrogant as to tread on His domain.

Comrade Kaiwen wrote:
Anyone's free to do so, but I do have a big problem with children being forced to believe (not saying that religion is the only thing that does that), mostly because I've had some personal troubles with that. Oh well, maybe I'm beginning to sound liberal. I still think we need socialist theology.

Children should be allowed to know of religion but I agree forcing it on them is an unbearable oppression. Guilting children into faith (or out of it) is a shallow and creul tactic unbecoming of a righteous people.
Last edited by Dagoth Ur on 29 Mar 2012, 00:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Post 29 Mar 2012, 00:50
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 31 Dec 2011, 06:02
Pioneer
Post 29 Mar 2012, 01:44
Quote:
See the problem most theists delude themselves into thinking is that they have knowledge (atheists fall into the same ludicrous trap but that's a whole other matter). Proving God is literally the destruction of faith.
Sorry for defending the symbiosis of faith and reason.
Quote:
You don't "mind" my beliefs? Well that is certainly clear as you dismissed them out of hand without thinking at all. You explicitly refused to believe that bourgeoisie ideology effects religious action and the issues religious institutions choose to pursue. This is not only absurd to the max but displays a deep ignorance of the historical development of the religious community through great shifts in society. You also refused to acknowledge capitalism's effect on your faith and on the faith of others. No all you did was insult me, refuse to answer my questions and set up strawmen against me.
I dismissed them because I thought they didn't add up. Now, you're also making a key statement, "effects religious action" do some people use religion as a way to gain wealth and power or whatever it is they want? Sure, sometimes. But does that make current religion inherently bad? Of course not. Just because a religion may be enduring capitalism doesn't mean it's evil and wrong.
Also, if there are any questions I haven't answered properly, can you explain?

Quote:
If God guided evolution where do Adam and Eve fit into this? Also if God guided evolution surly it would mention this in the Bible....
How do I know? I'm not God. Maybe theey were the first human beings as we know them today, maybe they are just allegories, only God knows for sure.
Quote:
Panspermia theory? I would say this possibly the best explanation so far about how life on earth began but there is strong evidence about meteors with proteins and other organic chemistry inside, which could have crashed into earth at the right time, it's debateable.
Sure. But what created those proteins?
Quote:
What is telling is that Ben Stein based his attacks on the theory of evolution on a question about abiogenesis, which has exactly zero percent to do with evolution.
That's neat, now do you anything to say about the topic?
Quote:
Ben Stein is clinically insane. I remember walking into his movie on evolution years back. He basically used the Nazi's to discredit atheism which is the dumbest argument ever conceived. He literally had a scene where he said "look at these terrible death camps, if only the Nazi's were religious." I face-palmed hard. Perhaps that boring game show he hosted rotted his brain.
Same thing again as above.
Quote:
I like many of the points you make Dagoth, but if I'd follow your beliefs, there'd be no point in believing in God. I myself am an atheist and I don't really see any reason why I should believe in God in the first place.
This is a problem Dagoth, what would be the point really?
Quote:
was how it grinds my gears with these fundamentalist arguments that can suddenly change to ‘well god guided evolution’ yet it doesn’t say it in the bible but they then contradict themselves by talking about other parts of the bible literally, word for word.
It grinds my gears when you expect us to talk for God.
Quote:
If you find a reason Allah wil be pleased. It's not my job to convince you of Allah and in fact I wouldn't be so arrogant as to tread on His domain.
That's nice, but I still don't understand what the substance to this faith is. Why do you believe this? Because you just think it's correct and nothing more? Because you think Alah will bless you in your lifetime? A combination of the two and eternal life? What is it?
Soviet cogitations: 2051
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 24 Jun 2011, 08:37
Party Bureaucrat
Post 29 Mar 2012, 05:47
Quote:
That's neat, now do you anything to say about the topic?


The topic of evolution or the topic of how life was created on earth?

You are conflating the two, please be specific.


To help you out a bit, let's have some definitions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 29 Mar 2012, 10:07
Das_ALoveStory wrote:
Sorry for defending the symbiosis of faith and reason.

It is not reasonable to claim to Know God.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
I dismissed them because I thought they didn't add up.

No you just say stuff like this without ever explaining yourself. You say no and leave it at that.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
Now, you're also making a key statement, "effects religious action" do some people use religion as a way to gain wealth and power or whatever it is they want? Sure, sometimes. But does that make current religion inherently bad? Of course not. Just because a religion may be enduring capitalism doesn't mean it's evil and wrong.
Also, if there are any questions I haven't answered properly, can you explain?

The above is proof you haven't been listening to me at all. Bourgeoisie ideology dominates discourse in all major religions. It's a part of cultural hegemony, no part of society is free from bourgeoisie control or cultural manipulation. I never said religion is inherently bad, I'm a proud Muslim and I value the accomplishments of Islam, but the current order restricts our spiritual growth and the development of our institutions. Religion is not a special agency, it is like every other social institution (ie formed by the economic base of society) that must be seized by the People if we hope to destroy the cultural hegemony of the ruling elite. You refuse to believe that religious actors play into bourgeoisie interests, this is absurd and ignores history altogether. It's not religion's fault, it's just part of the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
This is a problem Dagoth, what would be the point really?

I already answered this but I'll say it again. The point is that I believe Allah is real and I believe in His cause. The point is that Humanity deserves our service as it serves our Lord. The point is that Allah told us to.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
That's nice, but I still don't understand what the substance to this faith is. Why do you believe this? Because you just think it's correct and nothing more? Because you think Alah will bless you in your lifetime? A combination of the two and eternal life? What is it?

Worshipping Allah for blessings is pathetic and selfish. I follow Allah because His Truth is sensible and I believe in Him. I would follow Him even knowing I would be sent to Hell. This is what it means to Love God, to sacrifice everything in His Name and in His Cause. Anything less is to be a charlatan and Allah sees through all masks.

Also it's pretty shitty how you try to do what you bitch about the atheists doing, that is attack my faith on grounds of evidence. Faith is outside evidence and proof and logic, necessarily so. That is its power.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 31 Dec 2011, 06:02
Pioneer
Post 29 Mar 2012, 19:16
Quote:
It is not reasonable to claim to Know God.
What do you mean by "know"?
Quote:
No you just say stuff like this without ever explaining yourself. You say no and leave it at that.
No, I'd ask you a question based upon the answer you gave me.
Quote:
The above is proof you haven't been listening to me at all. Bourgeoisie ideology dominates discourse in all major religions. It's a part of cultural hegemony, no part of society is free from bourgeoisie control or cultural manipulation. I never said religion is inherently bad, I'm a proud Muslim and I value the accomplishments of Islam, but the current order restricts our spiritual growth and the development of our institutions. Religion is not a special agency, it is like every other social institution (ie formed by the economic base of society) that must be seized by the People if we hope to destroy the cultural hegemony of the ruling elite. You refuse to believe that religious actors play into bourgeoisie interests, this is absurd and ignores history altogether. It's not religion's fault, it's just part of the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.
Sure, that makes sense to me, I can mostly agree with that. I think we had a misconception on what we meant by religion itself. What I am trying to say is that the word of God remains true no matter what economic system it is in, but how it is manipulated by others may be another story.
However, I still don't believe that bourgeois-version religion is even that bad.
Quote:
I already answered this but I'll say it again. The point is that I believe Allah is real and I believe in His cause. The point is that Humanity deserves our service as it serves our Lord. The point is that Allah told us to.
Ok, fair enough.
Quote:
Worshipping Allah for blessings is pathetic and selfish. I follow Allah because His Truth is sensible and I believe in Him. I would follow Him even knowing I would be sent to Hell. This is what it means to Love God, to sacrifice everything in His Name and in His Cause. Anything less is to be a charlatan and Allah sees through all masks.
That sounds pretty but really you just selected the first option.
Quote:
Also it's pretty shitty how you try to do what you bitch about the atheists doing, that is attack my faith on grounds of evidence. Faith is outside evidence and proof and logic, necessarily so. That is its power.
There are multiple ramifications to this. Firstly, your version is Islam, to me is unheard of, I even asked my Muslim friends about it and they were offended. I'm not a master of Muslim theology so I couldn't tell you what your religion is supposed to be like, but I can say that yours seems to be reconciliation with diamat and a stark divergence with orthodox Islam. For example, I asked my buddies if they believed in heaven and they said of course and cited the Koran, but you won't give me a straight answer on that, claiming you couldn't say whether or not it was real. But if you were a Muslim, wouldn't you just say yes it exists, as the Koran says it does? And that intrigues me because you are then putting your religion on scientific grounds, which does allow it to be questioned with evidence.
But really, let's cut out this idea that faith is out side of logic and all of that, because that's easily false.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 29 Mar 2012, 19:57
Das_ALoveStory wrote:
What do you mean by "know"?

Claiming to Know Allah exists, outside of this being a purely faith-based statement, is entirely unreasonable. You've never seen Allah, you've never spoke to Him, and His presence has been constant so you don't even recognize his presence in any evidentiary way.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
Sure, that makes sense to me, I can mostly agree with that. I think we had a misconception on what we meant by religion itself. What I am trying to say is that the word of God remains true no matter what economic system it is in, but how it is manipulated by others may be another story.
However, I still don't believe that bourgeois-version religion is even that bad.

It is bad because it corrupts the faith of young people and pushes them into political positions that are contrary to Allah's law. Allah's Word is consistent but our institutions are always a source o suspicion as they are agencies of Man not Allah (despite its function).

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
That sounds pretty but really you just selected the first option.

No because my correctness is only relevant to me. The correctness of Islam proved itself to me, not the other way around.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
There are multiple ramifications to this. Firstly, your version is Islam, to me is unheard of, I even asked my Muslim friends about it and they were offended.

I'm not that unconventional. I am not a Sufi but I tred in their waters and this view of Islam is not explained or noticed in the West so I'm not surprised you are unfamiliar with my tactics. Also I'd need to know what you said to them, as I'm convinced they did not get an accurate picture, many Muslims have a problem with Sufi mysticism and there have been fundamentist campaigns against the Sufi in the past and today. This is a product of ignorance.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
I'm not a master of Muslim theology so I couldn't tell you what your religion is supposed to be like, but I can say that yours seems to be reconciliation with diamat and a stark divergence with orthodox Islam.

But it isn't. I use Diamat to rationalize certain biblical events like creation but largely Diamat relates to my life itself and the material world we were provided. It is an insult to Allah to not live in His world.

Also I am not a master of Islam and I make mistakes from time to time. I am human afterall.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
For example, I asked my buddies if they believed in heaven and they said of course and cited the Koran, but you won't give me a straight answer on that, claiming you couldn't say whether or not it was real. But if you were a Muslim, wouldn't you just say yes it exists, as the Koran says it does?

I was wrong to be so vague. To be clear I believe in Heaven I just do jot spend my life withy eyes locked onto it. Also I think that building heaven on earth, not as a replacement for the afterlife, is our moral duty as humans. We've already created many hells, including this modern one, it's time to stop brutalizing our people.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
And ethat intrigues me because you are then putting your religion on scientific grounds, which does allow it to be questioned with evidence.

Not really. You can't even define what damning evidence would be.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
But really, let's cut out this idea that faith is out side of logic and all of that, because that's easily false.

No it isn't. There is no proof of Allah outside his Word. That is not logical and certainly not empirical. But you're missing the point since you don't need evidence for your faith, and the less evidence the greater the strength of your faith.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 24 Feb 2012, 23:00
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Post 29 Mar 2012, 20:23
Quote:
Sure. But what created those proteins?

The early elements joining together by the heat produced in the early Earth via lightning. This created the building blocks of life, amino acids. In the same time water was produced, because the early Earth was very hot due to volcanoes and other geological activity so when it rained the water gathered in small hot pools, similar to the ones found in Iceland, this is the perfect breeding ground for amino acids to join together to form proteins and then the proteins form together simple cell organisms which evolve etc. etc. Sorry Das no God was involved with the making of the Earth. Also please do not say who made the elements because that proves nothing, except how you can modify your 'rock solid' beliefs for an argument.
Also I made a mistake this is the Primordial soup theory not the Panspermia theory, that’s the meteor one
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Post 30 Mar 2012, 01:04
Quote:
The early elements joining together by the heat produced in the early Earth via lightning. This created the building blocks of life, amino acids. In the same time water was produced, because the early Earth was very hot due to volcanoes and other geological activity so when it rained the water gathered in small hot pools, similar to the ones found in Iceland, this is the perfect breeding ground for amino acids to join together to form proteins and then the proteins form together simple cell organisms which evolve etc. etc. Sorry Das no God was involved with the making of the Earth. Also please do not say who made the elements because that proves nothing, except how you can modify your 'rock solid' beliefs for an argument.
The point is, your evidential arguments aren't worth anything.
I'll say what I please to tear this garbage apart. Who created that heat, the lightning, rain, amino acids or whatever? You cannot account for anything properly, like usual. Keep going backward if you like, you'll still end up in the exact same place.

Quote:
Claiming to Know Allah exists, outside of this being a purely faith-based statement, is entirely unreasonable. You've never seen Allah, you've never spoke to Him, and His presence has been constant so you don't even recognize his presence in any evidentiary way.
If you think this all comes down to faith then I'm surprised you adopt any ideas of your own at all.
Quote:
No because my correctness is only relevant to me. The correctness of Islam proved itself to me, not the other way around.
Okay.
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I'm not that unconventional. I am not a Sufi but I tred in their waters and this view of Islam is not explained or noticed in the West so I'm not surprised you are unfamiliar with my tactics. Also I'd need to know what you said to them, as I'm convinced they did not get an accurate picture, many Muslims have a problem with Sufi mysticism and there have been fundamentist campaigns against the Sufi in the past and today. This is a product of ignorance.
They said there was seven heavens.
Quote:
But it isn't. I use Diamat to rationalize certain biblical events like creation but largely Diamat relates to my life itself and the material world we were provided. It is an insult to Allah to not live in His world.
Ok, sure, not sure how you couldn't live in his world if you exist. Not sure how you use diamat to rationalize those events, however. Let me ask you this, does this God transcend materialism?
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I was wrong to be so vague. To be clear I believe in Heaven I just do jot spend my life withy eyes locked onto it. Also I think that building heaven on earth, not as a replacement for the afterlife, is our moral duty as humans. We've already created many hells, including this modern one, it's time to stop brutalizing our people.
Ok, but I still don't understand, do you think that heaven, even if maybe only for those that hadn't seen it built, exists within our physical universe? Because if not, I see a contradiction between diamat and your beliefs.
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Not really. You can't even define what damning evidence would be.
Diamat is scientific and not really something of faith.
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No it isn't. There is no proof of Allah outside his Word. That is not logical and certainly not empirical. But you're missing the point since you don't need evidence for your faith, and the less evidence the greater the strength of your faith.
Sure, but that would be like saying my faith would be the strongest if I believed in something absolutely ridiculous. I think there are certainly logical reasons to believe in whatever it is you want to.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 24 Feb 2012, 23:00
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Post 30 Mar 2012, 17:38
@Das Using 'God did it' as an argument is just an ignorant and lazy answer for things we can prove with science, which you don't accept because it contradicts with the Bible. Just because you say God made the big bang or God guided evolution doesn't make an argument it's more like just clutching at straws. I've tried my best to show you some valid arguments against some key parts of the Bible but all I have met is flawed arguments and ignorance. I feel little point continuing with this because obviously you'll put 'God created it' in front of any point I make.
“It is better to die standing than to live on your knees.“-Che Geuvara
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 12 Jun 2011, 15:14
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Post 30 Mar 2012, 18:41
The Mighty O wrote:
The early elements joining together by the heat produced in the early Earth via lightning. This created the building blocks of life, amino acids. In the same time water was produced, because the early Earth was very hot due to volcanoes and other geological activity so when it rained the water gathered in small hot pools, similar to the ones found in Iceland, this is the perfect breeding ground for amino acids to join together to form proteins and then the proteins form together simple cell organisms which evolve etc. etc. Sorry Das no God was involved with the making of the Earth. Also please do not say who made the elements because that proves nothing, except how you can modify your 'rock solid' beliefs for an argument.
Also I made a mistake this is the Primordial soup theory not the Panspermia theory, that’s the meteor one.

With all due respect to you personally, Mighty O, I consider this to be just another creation myth. I mean DALS believes that his, or her (as DALS never indicated which sex s/he is, that I can recall), God spoke it into existance, you assert that a lightning bolt blasted it into being, while others theorise that a meteor struck it into being. In a Biology textbook I had, as a senior in high school, it suggested that in the begining there were two types of cells, simple, and complex. One day a simple cell ate a complex one, and got indigestion. Out of this combined organism developed over time all life as we know it today. Now, the Biology book did admit that this is just one possible scenario, and challenged us to think of other possible explanations. I find your's to be fascinating as well, but still I think that all of these tales seem a bit too far fetched to me. They have a sort of legendary sense to them, I think. The only real difference is that you didn't post that it was Zeus who sent the lightning. As for me, as a Deist, I believe that the Deity is the first cause/prime mover of all matter. I furthermore accept the notion of theistic evolution. Now I'm certainly not saying that it couldn't have happened without a supreme being. I just find my deistic position to be more probable, in my personal opinion. If what atheists such as yourselves believe is actually correct, I think that that the origins of life would be even more incredible than any theistic creation story. And matters of faith is not contingent upon what I claim to know, but what I believe. And I choose to at least give God the benefit of my doubts. Which is why I profess to be a deist, rather than simply an agnostic. P.S. I think that my contributing my in put to this thread is making things even more interesting. I mean, the atheists say stuff, the Christian, and Muslim, dispute things, and then I respond by stating that I think you're all wrong.
But I think that the one thing upon which the theists and I can all agree with is that our finite minds can never fully grasp the infinity of divinity. And the divine being knows best as to what the truth of the matter is.
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Post 30 Mar 2012, 21:15
@Jason I agree with your points but that seems the most probable answer in my mind, I also learned this theory in my Biology GSCE's. I think that out of all the 'lucky' misses the planet has endured with meteors and other such things, it seems the most reliable and there was an experiment done in the 50's not sure who by though. Also I was watching a science program, by the BBC called 'wonders of the solar system', on one episode it says how a meteor from Mars had hit the Earth, it shows a small fragment and it says about how it contained Amino Acids. This supports the Panspermia theory about a meteor hitting earth with life on it. Both Theories have their merits but no one is still 100% convinced on the primeval soup theory. I think it's the best we've got so far. I could see where people could get the divine intervention idea from but it seems abit far fetched that God shaped this planet, IMO.
“It is better to die standing than to live on your knees.“-Che Geuvara
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