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Religious Dialogue

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 30 Mar 2012, 22:25
Das_ALoveStory wrote:
If you think this all comes down to faith then I'm surprised you adopt any ideas of your own at all.

What? If you don't understand the primacy of faith to religion then you've missed the point.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
They said there was seven heavens.

I wrote:
Also I am not a master of Islam and I make mistakes from time to time. I am human afterall.

This is one of those cases.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
Ok, sure, not sure how you couldn't live in his world if you exist.

By spending your life ignoring it. If you aren't a materialist you aren't living in the real world.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
Not sure how you use diamat to rationalize those events, however. Let me ask you this, does this God transcend materialism?

God transcends transcendence.


Das_ALoveStory wrote:
Ok, but I still don't understand, do you think that heaven, even if maybe only for those that hadn't seen it built, exists within our physical universe? Because if not, I see a contradiction between diamat and your beliefs.

You cannot arrive in Heaven, you must journey to get there. The real world is no different. Even in the material conditions of Paradise were achieved those born within them would still have to locate spiritual Paradise.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
Diamat is scientific and not really something of faith.

Actually science necessarily relies on faith. You cannot read all the theories that exist nor intake all their supporting or detracting data. It behooves us to take the word of studied men. I have not studied the idea that the Sun is a nuclear inferno but I believe it is. In what sense is that not faith?

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
Sure, but that would be like saying my faith would be the strongest if I believed in something absolutely ridiculous. I think there are certainly logical reasons to believe in whatever it is you want to.

There are logical reason that form belief but belief itself is irrational. This is not meant negatively nor should it be. It's just a category.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 31 Dec 2011, 06:02
Pioneer
Post 30 Mar 2012, 22:55
Quote:
What? If you don't understand the primacy of faith to religion then you've missed the point.
I just don't like that you are crippling religion by saying it relies on faith.
Quote:
By spending your life ignoring it. If you aren't a materialist you aren't living in the real world.
Well then what are you living in?
Quote:
God transcends transcendence.
Ok, so he is transcends materialism? Isn't that a problem?
Quote:
You cannot arrive in Heaven, you must journey to get there. The real world is no different. Even in the material conditions of Paradise were achieved those born within them would still have to locate spiritual Paradise.
Here's the underlying question: do you believe in life after death? Or just a material heaven which we have to work towards?
I mean, I think it would be kind of ridiculous to say all of those who died trying to make this heaven never ever got to see it.
Quote:
Actually science necessarily relies on faith. You cannot read all the theories that exist nor intake all their supporting or detracting data. It behooves us to take the word of studied men. I have not studied the idea that the Sun is a nuclear inferno but I believe it is. In what sense is that not faith?
Yes, but you could study it, correct?
Quote:
There are logical reason that form belief but belief itself is irrational. This is not meant negatively nor should it be. It's just a category.
That seems pretty negative to me.
But here's what I don't understand, how is your God compatible with diamat if he influences humanity and exists beyond the material world?

Quote:
I could see where people could get the divine intervention idea from but it seems abit far fetched that God shaped this planet, IMO.
Not if he exists.
Quote:
Using 'God did it' as an argument is just an ignorant and lazy answer for things we can prove with science, which you don't accept because it contradicts with the Bible
You really don't know what a God is do you? You think that if God existed he couldn't create a meteor or cells or whatever?
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Just because you say God made the big bang or God guided evolution doesn't make an argument it's more like just clutching at straws
Well it's not like you have anything to say he didn't.
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I've tried my best to show you some valid arguments against some key parts of the Bible but all I have met is flawed arguments and ignorance.
No, you gave me a bunch of terrible evidential arguments which had no meaning at all.
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I feel little point continuing with this because obviously you'll put 'God created it' in front of any point I make
Well do you expect me to be an atheist and say back "Oh yes, that meteor which somehow came to exist must have created life, not God even though he's the only way I can account for it"?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 01 Apr 2012, 05:44
Jason24 wrote:
. And matters of faith is not contingent upon what I claim to know, but what I believe. And I choose to at least give God the benefit of my doubts. Which is why I profess to be a deist, rather than simply an agnostic. P.S. I think that my contributing my in put to this thread is making things even more interesting. I mean, the atheists say stuff, the Christian, and Muslim, dispute things, and then I respond by stating that I think you're all wrong.
But I think that the one thing upon which the theists and I can all agree with is that our finite minds can never fully grasp the infinity of divinity. And the divine being knows best as to what the truth of the matter is.

This. In every way.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
I just don't like that you are crippling religion by saying it relies on faith.

Crippling? Our faith is our strength. It allows us to exist outside fear.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
Well then what are you living in?

Dreams and Lies.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
Ok, so he is transcends materialism? Isn't that a problem?

Only if everything not being matter is a problem.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
Here's the underlying question: do you believe in life after death? Or just a material heaven which we have to work towards?

Both.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
I mean, I think it would be kind of ridiculous to say all of those who died trying to make this heaven never ever got to see it.

Doing good works just for the reward is a philistine attitude.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
Yes, but you could study it, correct?

I could but to spend time on researching solar nuclear fission would require me to take other realms of science on Faith. You can't study everything, not in any meaningful way.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
That seems pretty negative to me.

Just because you're raised in with liberalism with all its negative connotations.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
But here's what I don't understand, how is your God compatible with diamat if he influences humanity and exists beyond the material world?

How is he not? What do you think DiaMat is?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
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Post 01 Apr 2012, 14:40
...i thought this thread was over, but now it gets nice again

No more one liners please.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 31 Dec 2011, 06:02
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Post 03 Apr 2012, 01:35
Quote:
This. In every way.
We can still have logical reasons for believing in God.
Quote:
Crippling? Our faith is our strength. It allows us to exist outside fear.
You're giving the atheist more ammunition, really.
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Both.
Do you think one will eventually over take the other?
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I could but to spend time on researching solar nuclear fission would require me to take other realms of science on Faith. You can't study everything, not in any meaningful way.

Sure, but we have people who do study it for a living and they can give us logical evidence.
Quote:
How is he not? What do you think DiaMat is?
I think that if reality is the product of a single mind then certainly diamat is completely false. If we are being led by the idea of God, then how is diamat possible?
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Post 03 Apr 2012, 21:50
Das_ALoveStory wrote:
We can still have logical reasons for believing in God.

To the fundamentalist there is nothing illogical in faith, to the atheist there is nothing illogical in claiming to Know God Doesn't Exist. The truly logical position is to take a position relating to God (who is too powerful a social force alone to be ignored) but to admit you have no proof. Anything else is absurd.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
You're giving the atheist more ammunition, really.

The fundamentalists give them more evidence than I ever could. And no actually atheists tend to hate me the most (lol order) precisely because I do not fall into their prejudiced view of religious people. Although many religious people dislike me to because I don't respond to their attempts to pigeon-hole my ideas.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
Do you think one will eventually over take the other?

Are you asking if I believe in End Times? Yes I believe Humanity will one day die.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
Sure, but we have people who do study it for a living and they can give us logical evidence.

Sure but I can't take in all their data. I have to have faith in their answers and the ability of science to overturn this answer if it proves wrong. Why are you so fearful of science necessarily relying on Faith?

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
I think that if reality is the product of a single mind then certainly diamat is completely false. If we are being led by the idea of God, then how is diamat possible?

Okay I'm going to re-ask the question you didn't answer because it's even more relevant to this answer: What do you think DiaMat is? And besides don't you believe in God driven evolution? Why do you think God would establish one natural process but not another?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 31 Dec 2011, 06:02
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Post 04 Apr 2012, 23:58
Quote:
To the fundamentalist there is nothing illogical in faith, to the atheist there is nothing illogical in claiming to Know God Doesn't Exist. The truly logical position is to take a position relating to God (who is too powerful a social force alone to be ignored) but to admit you have no proof. Anything else is absurd.
Ok, I think I see what you're saying.
Quote:
The fundamentalists give them more evidence than I ever could. And no actually atheists tend to hate me the most (lol order) precisely because I do not fall into their prejudiced view of religious people. Although many religious people dislike me to because I don't respond to their attempts to pigeon-hole my ideas.
I just don't like the way you apologize for religion. Is not capitalist atheism flawed as well?
Quote:
Are you asking if I believe in End Times? Yes I believe Humanity will one day die.
If we acheived communism, then why?
Quote:
Sure but I can't take in all their data. I have to have faith in their answers and the ability of science to overturn this answer if it proves wrong. Why are you so fearful of science necessarily relying on Faith?
Because you don't need faith to believe in gravity, but some argue you need rely on faith for certain religions.
Quote:
Okay I'm going to re-ask the question you didn't answer because it's even more relevant to this answer: What do you think DiaMat is? And besides don't you believe in God driven evolution? Why do you think God would establish one natural process but not another?
I think diamat is a Marxist look at the way things happen, using materialism to explain change through contradictions and oppositional forces.
But I see the problem in materialism. If God exists then how can materialist philosophy be true? If we are following the idea of God then how is that materialist? God has a mind, yes? Then matter comes from one single mind, not the other way around? Most materialists would say we started worshipping Gid because whatever materialist condition arose that made it neccessary to worship God.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 10 Apr 2012, 05:50
Das_ALoveStory wrote:
If we acheived communism, then why?

Because humanity can't last forever. At the very least we'll stop being humans.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
Because you don't need faith to believe in gravity, but some argue you need rely on faith for certain religions.

You need faith to believe in anything, including gravity. And gravity is a pretty poor example for you as we have very little understanding of its mechanics.

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
I think diamat is a Marxist look at the way things happen, using materialism to explain change through contradictions and oppositional forces.But I see the problem in materialism. If God exists then how can materialist philosophy be true?

Why does believing in God contradict materialism?

Das_ALoveStory wrote:
If we are following the idea of God then how is that materialist? God has a mind, yes? Then matter comes from one single mind, not the other way around? Most materialists would say we started worshipping Gid because whatever materialist condition arose that made it neccessary to worship God.

So what if we did? Our faith is the important part, it's what makes religion a thing at all. Faith is liberation from fear (despite the fact the many theists use it as a tool of fear).
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 10 Apr 2012, 21:16
There is plenty of fear without faith. Fear of death is the main fear religion was designed to address. I'm not saying fear cannot be conquered without religion but that's the point of religion and faith. And even if you don't choose a religion you end up putting your faith in other things. Believing in things is Human.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 31 Dec 2011, 06:02
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Post 13 Apr 2012, 00:49
Quote:
Why does believing in God contradict materialism?
What would Marx say if you told him you believed in an immaterial being who guided humanity (or at least influenced it)?
Quote:
There is no fear without faith.
Wicked quote dude.
Soviet cogitations: 10005
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 16 Apr 2012, 00:24
dagoth what's your opinion on this?

http://www.marxists.org/reference/subje ... /magee.htm

nice part:

Quote:
There is, however, one essential feature that I shall take as definitive of Hermeticism. Ernest Lee Tuveson, in his The Avatars of Thrice Greatest Hermes: An Approach to Romanticism suggests that Hermeticism constitutes a middle position between pantheism and the Judaeo-Christian conception of God. According to traditional Judaeo-Christian thought, God utterly transcends and is infinitely distant from creation. Furthermore, God is entirely self-sufficient and therefore did not have to create the world, and would have lost nothing if He had not created it. Thus the act of creation is essentially gratuitous and unmotivated. God creates out of sheer abundance, not out of need. This doctrine has proved dissatisfying and even disturbing to many, for it makes creation seem arbitrary and absurd. Pantheism, by contrast, so thoroughly involves the divine in the world that everything becomes God, even mud, hair, and dirt — which drains the divine of its exaltedness and sublimity. Thus, pantheism is equally dissatisfying.

Hermeticism is a middle position because it affirms both God’s transcendence of the world and his involvement in it. God is metaphysically distinct from the world, yet God needs the world to complete Himself. Thus the act of creation is not arbitrary or gratuitous, but necessary and rational. Consider these lines from the “Discourse of Hermes to Tat: The mixing bowl or the monad” (Corpus Hermeticum 4): “If you force me to say something still more daring, it is [God’s] essence to be pregnant with all things and to make them. As it is impossible for anything to be produced without a maker, so also is it impossible for this maker [not] to exist always unless he is always making everything.... He is himself the things that are and those that are not.” Consider also Corpus Hermeticum 10: “God’s activity is will, and his essence is to will all things to be.” Finally, consider Corpus Hermeticum 14: “For the two are all there is, what comes to be and what makes it, and it is impossible to separate the one from the other. No maker can exist without something that comes to be:” Thus, according to Hermeticism, God requires creation in order to be God. This Hermetic account of creation is central to Hegel’s thought as well.

But there is more. Hermeticists not only hold that God requires creation, they make a specific creature, man, play a crucial role in God’s selfactualization. Hermeticism holds that man can know God, and that man’s knowledge of God is necessary for God’s own completion. Consider the words of Corpus Hermeticum 10: “For God does not ignore mankind; on the contrary, he recognizes him fully and wishes to be recognized. For mankind this is the only deliverance, the knowledge of God. It is ascent to Olympus.” Corpus Hermeticum 11 asks, “Who is more visible than God? This is why he made all things: so that through them all you might look on him.” As Garth Fowden notes, what God gains from creation is recognition: “Man’s contemplation of God is in some sense a two-way process. Not only does Man wish to know God, but God too desires to be known by the most glorious of His creations, Man:” In short, it is man’s end to achieve knowledge of God (or “the wisdom of God,” theosophy). In so doing, man realizes God’s own need to be recognized. Man’s knowledge of God becomes God’s knowledge of himself. Thus the need for which the cosmos is created is the need for selfknowledge, attained through recognition. Variations on this doctrine are to be found throughout the Hermetic tradition.

It is important to understand the significance of this doctrine in the history of ideas. On the standard Judaeo-Christian account of creation, the creation of the world and God’s command that mankind seek to know and love him seem arbitrary, because there is no reason why a perfect being should want or need anything. The great advantage of the Hermetic conception is that it tells us why the cosmos and the human desire to know God exist in the first place.

This Hermetic doctrine of the “circular” relationship between God and creation and the necessity of man for the completion of God is utterly original. It is not to be found in earlier philosophy. But it recurs again and again in the thought of Hermeticists, and it is the chief doctrinal identity between Hermeticism and Hegelian thought.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
Soviet cogitations: 10005
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 01 Feb 2014, 06:16
Jesus this thread was awesome. We should go back to discussing religion more.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
Soviet cogitations: 12389
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
Ideology: None
Philosophized
Post 01 Feb 2014, 06:36
Thread necromancy is a definite form of theurgy, which falls solidly under the Hermetic umbrella.
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
Soviet cogitations: 10005
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 01 Feb 2014, 06:44
Hell I wish I could confront Dals with the fact that my signature is now a Bible quote.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
Soviet cogitations: 12389
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
Ideology: None
Philosophized
Post 01 Feb 2014, 06:58
I don't even remember Das being here. He must have been a new signup during my leave of absence. Anyhow, he's probably off fapping to videos of Carmelite nuns rambling on about their "interior castles".
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
Soviet cogitations: 10005
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 01 Feb 2014, 07:03
In that case I really, really suggest you read this entire thread. This guy must have been the most hilarious visitor we've ever had.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
Soviet cogitations: 12389
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
Ideology: None
Philosophized
Post 01 Feb 2014, 07:24
To me, Christianity represents the hodge podge of Levantine and Platonist conceptions that were cobbled together to provide cosmological justification for the hierarchical system of Byzantium.

Luther and his successors are best understood through historical and class analysis, not by the religious claptrap they cloaked their motivations in.
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
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