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The class struggle in Greece explained

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Sep 2011, 11:23
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Pioneer
Post 22 Dec 2011, 09:07
A documentary uploaded on the CPIreland youtube channel, and it is a translated KKE's propaganda clip about the capitalist crisis and the class struggle in Greece.
Well done Irish Comrades!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl5k3mxHNXw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhQKmixO8MA
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Feb 2005, 02:51
Party Bureaucrat
Post 22 Dec 2011, 13:48
Good video, however, I would be more cautious, sure, Marxism should provide the theoretical guidance for nation building, but to say that we are already in the transition from capitalism to socialism, appears to be a bit premature.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Sep 2011, 11:23
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Post 22 Dec 2011, 14:50
Quote:
but to say that we are already in the transition from capitalism to socialism, appears to be a bit premature.

We live in an era than capitalism has matured and has entered in its imperialist stage, which is its final level. There are monopolies, concentrated means of production, inter-imperailistic conflicts for the the control of markets, and actually is quite possible that we're heading towards a "redistribution of the world" under different rulers, and we're actuallyunder a over-production over-accumulution crisis, which is very hard to overcome, exactly because of the level of accumulated capital.

This is the typical case of transition from capitalism to socialism, especially in developed countries (not to mention lenin's "weakest link" theory)..

What else do you need? The only thing that most countries lack is the "subjective factor" ie. the Communist Party to organize the working class and class struggle, and promote class consciousness.
Quote:


"Socialism is the first step of the communist socioeconomic formation is not an autonomous socio-economic formation. It is the immature, early communism.
Total prevalence of communist lawhoods(not sure if "lawhood" is the right word) presupposes the overcoming of immature elements that characterize the lower stage of socialism.

Immature Communism means that the full communist relations in production and distribution have not yet prevailed
But the basic law of the communist mode of production is applicable: "Production for the broader satisfaction of the social needs."

The concentrated means of production are being socialized, but initially remain forms of individual and collective* property that are the basis for the existence of commodity relations."

* mostly on low concentration sectors

This is just a part of the thesis of KKE on socialism. The communist party of greece does not accept that there can be any type of power other than bourgoise or proletarian, not any form of power in between capitalism and socialism. KKE's program is to establish "Laiki exousia" that is "People's authority" or "People's Democracy" as you may know it, with the working class and the party on authority. Dictatorship of the working class in other words.



Sorry for my poor english and translation. I'm used to write much more than that in Greek, but my english marxist terminology is nonexistant ...
Last edited by ckkomel on 22 Dec 2011, 14:55, edited 3 times in total.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhQKmixO8MA
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 24 Jun 2011, 08:37
Party Bureaucrat
Post 22 Dec 2011, 14:54
Your english is excellent and you explained it very well.

Thanks for posting the clip. What is the situation in Greece presently?
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Under communism, there is no freedom; you are not free to live in poverty, be homeless, to be without an education, to starve, or to be without a job
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Sep 2011, 11:23
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Post 22 Dec 2011, 15:24
runequester wrote:
Your english is excellent and you explained it very well.

Thanks for posting the clip. What is the situation in Greece presently?

Well that's a long story, but briefly:

the political system, was under heavy pressure, so they decided that it would be better to establish a "united" government after the elected party quit, so to avoid elections and any shake ups in the process of "nagotiating" (actually forcing) the rules and directives from all imperialist centers that has taken over the situation (imf,ecb, europ. commity, and co). The socialdemo party, the right wing, and the nationalists, while all ministers of the right-wing party of ND quited from the party, so they stay the first opposition in parliament (otherwise it would be KKE)..

The bourgoise media are waging full scale propagnda, trying to confuse the people and give illusions about "some alternative way of management", using mostly the opportunist parties of the european left, that are talking about collaboration with the "patriotic bourgoisie" (rofl) and a more "state regulated capitalism", proposing alliances with the "patriotic" right wingers, and accusing the communists as "hardliners" or even "antirevolutionaries"(!!!)..

On the economy, I guess you guess... Good thing is the class (union) movement is getting bigger and stronger building fronts with all the class allies, the party is escalating the war.
The current front is the steel factory, 53 days in strike and counting (of course the bourgoise media not even mention it)..

well that;s for a taste..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhQKmixO8MA
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 22 Dec 2011, 18:52
Thanks for the insightful post.
What do you think about that recent conflict between anarchists and KKE/PAME?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Sep 2011, 11:23
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Post 23 Dec 2011, 01:08
Quote:
What do you think about that recent conflict between anarchists and KKE/PAME?


Well we can trace it back to the late 1800's, but that could be impractical


The cold truth is that we're talking about the murderous actions of about 100 people (mostly teenagers, or a little older), with non-existent action in the class movement and hence petty-bourgoise and/or lumpen, against the organized demonstration of class unions on a strike day that counted up to 150.000 people or more. What else can one say?

Their "reasoning" was that the mass peaceful class demonstration was blocking their "true revolutionary" "task" of clashing with the police (as always) and even seizing the parliament (rofl).
The old good anarchist b*lshit, combined with the actions of a bunch of anarchists with full-face masks, joint with lumpen and reactionary elements of football hooligan teams (you know those with the mindset "yeah anarchy, beer, frag da police), throwing molotovs and rocks to the crowd, and attacking with sticks the workers.

From the outcome of such actions against the organized class movement, we can safely say that even if this particular attack wasn't provoked and planned by the secret police and nazi parastatal groups, it surely could have been, as long as it works for their interests.

You greek Loz?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhQKmixO8MA
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 23 Dec 2011, 02:40
I see...well,its good that these degenerate provocateurs have been taught a lesson.They even threw molotovs on the workers...
They'll think twice before doing such shit in the future...

BTW i'm not a Greek,i'm from the ex-YU.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 08 Nov 2007, 06:31
Embalmed
Post 23 Dec 2011, 05:07
From the description I heard, you guys defended parliament from all non-KKE/PAME protestors (basically everyone), helped police arrest them, beat them with sticks, and otherwise did the riot police's job. I guess it's not a bad thing since its a victory over those dastardly 'anarcho-fascists'. Also I believe the clashes started first between the KKE and the 'I won't pay' movement, who aren't anarchist.
Last edited by Conscript on 23 Dec 2011, 05:55, edited 2 times in total.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Nov 2009, 07:13
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Politburo
Post 23 Dec 2011, 05:40
How is cooperating and even aiding with the bourgeois state beneficial?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Sep 2011, 11:23
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Post 23 Dec 2011, 07:32
Conscript wrote:
From the description I heard, you guys defended parliament from all non-KKE/PAME protestors (basically everyone), helped police arrest them, beat them with sticks, and otherwise did the riot police's job. I guess it's not a bad thing since its a victory over those dastardly 'anarcho-fascists'. Also I believe the clashes started first between the KKE and the 'I won't pay' movement, who aren't anarchist.

"i won;t pay", is mostly controled by the trotskyite eek, but is not a politcal or class organization.. is a so called "social movement" . There was a block about of about 70 people.
There were no clash. They argued because they wanted the blocks of pame to open so their block pass through... That was all. anarchists came right after them..

Ιn the first picture you can see the pame masses than are continuing futher on the road in front of the building, as you can see in the second pic (not in full extend, but we're talking for more than 100.000 people)

http://www.ski.gr/photos/big/F09EF8EF97A4034.jpg
http://www.logospellas.gr/images/storie ... a_la_0.jpg

The group of "don't pay", and a few anarchists (about 100-200 people) probably wanted all these people to start hovering, or pame mass to split in two, so that they could reach the front of the building and ... "seize" it(as they say...) That practically means, that they would simply provoke the intervention of the police and the ruin of the protest..

The argument about the "protection of the parliament" is ridiculous.. When main mass of pame left, the police dissolved the rest of the crowd (including the "blanquist" commandos) within 15 min... that;s the "insurrection" they were seeking..

PAME called for the protest that day.. If the "revolutionaries" want to seize the parliament, and is the communists who stops them, why don't they call another protest on their own and start the revolution themselves, on another day?

There were no arrests.


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mUJL1w_ayvM/T ... 1229_1.jpg
http://www.newsit.gr/files/Image/00-ART ... 33_355.jpg

Here you can see some of the security forces (probably with paramilitay nationalist circles), with full face protected by the police. How can you say who's who?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCvb2dAqZes

This is the beginning (οn the street on the left (1st pic):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td1nOjqm3L4 (check 1:50 as well)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff8D05Os ... re=related
Last edited by ckkomel on 23 Dec 2011, 08:37, edited 4 times in total.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhQKmixO8MA
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Sep 2011, 11:23
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Post 23 Dec 2011, 08:01
proletarian wrote:
How is cooperating and even aiding with the bourgeois state beneficial?

Defending your blocks and your mass from provocation is not "cooperation" is defense..
The few of of the black block wanted clash with the police.. the rest of the people just didn't!! That should be the end of it, but no.. they had to attack the workers, and the communists for not being in "insurrectionary spirit"

Personally, proletarian, have no problem with people's violence, against the state, and the forces, as long it is popular, organized, and with a specific goal, not by a small sect of professional (or hobbists) rioters.. That day there were workers striking for 48 hours, many with their families, kids, women, elderly.. Should they just ignore the possibility of police clampdown, loads of chemicals, arrests, and finally dissolvement of the protest because a few young anarchists wanted to make revolutionary exercise with the cops? I don't think so.


Conscript wrote:
I guess it's not a bad thing since its a victory over those dastardly 'anarcho-fascists'.

Now, i seen this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhQKmixO8MA
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 27 Apr 2007, 18:04
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Komsomol
Post 23 Dec 2011, 09:56
Quote:
Personally, proletarian, have no problem with people's violence, against the state, and the forces, as long it is popular, organized, and with a specific goal, not by a small sect of professional (or hobbists) rioters.. That day there were workers striking for 48 hours, many with their families, kids, women, elderly.. Should they just ignore the possibility of police clampdown, loads of chemicals, arrests, and finally dissolvement of the protest because a few young anarchists wanted to make revolutionary exercise with the cops? I don't think so.


That is very well said. Some people are just rioting because they want to riot. This is very dangerous and it makes for good propaganda for the right ("You see? Those communists/hippies/anarchists want nothing but violence!"), and it gives the police a good reason to crack down on the people.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 27 Dec 2011, 09:44
Yay, a fellow Greek. Geia sou suntrofe.

Quote:
to say that we are already in the transition from capitalism to socialism, appears to be a bit premature


No it's not. The forces of production are breaking free from the antiquated relations of production as we speak: Intellectual property drama.

Quote:
(not sure if "lawhood" is the right word)


You mean relations. Or social laws.

Quote:
KKE's program is to establish "Laiki exousia" that is "People's authority" or "People's Democracy" as you may know it, with the working class and the party on authority. Dictatorship of the working class in other words.


People's Democracy and Dictatorship of the Proletariat aren't quite the same thing. People's Democracy includes other classes. Greece, for example, has a huge petite bourgeoisie (I was born and live in Germany, but whenever I visit my family in Greece, I'm surprised by how many small, independent shops there are. I've never been to another country where the petite bourgeoisie was so big.) What is the KKE going to do with these people?

Quote:
the opportunist parties of the european left, that are talking about collaboration with the "patriotic bourgoisie" (rofl)


Why rofl? Collaboration with the patriotic bourgeoisie is a common ML tactic against imperialist oppression.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 11 Nov 2009, 07:13
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Post 27 Dec 2011, 17:22
Comrade Kaiwen wrote:
That is very well said. Some people are just rioting because they want to riot. This is very dangerous and it makes for good propaganda for the right ("You see? Those communists/hippies/anarchists want nothing but violence!"), and it gives the police a good reason to crack down on the people.

Fair enough, but that's not justification to work with the state that you are supposed to be opposing.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Sep 2011, 11:23
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Post 27 Dec 2011, 19:31
Mabool wrote:

You mean relations. Or social laws.

GEia sou syntrofe Mabool!.
I actually mean "nomoteleia", the inevitabilities produced by the implicit laws of a system.

Quote:

People's Democracy and Dictatorship of the Proletariat aren't quite the same thing. People's Democracy includes other classes. Greece, for example, has a huge petite bourgeoisie (I was born and live in Germany, but whenever I visit my family in Greece, I'm surprised by how many small, independent shops there are. I've never been to another country where the petite bourgeoisie was so big.) What is the KKE going to do with these people?

How do you exactly distinguish? I've heard some discussions about this matter, but generally are vague. In order to have dictatorship of the proletariat it already means that you have other classes or "relics" of these classes, or maybe other forms of property, so you need a proletarian dictatorship/authority. so to force your class interests on them.

I have found this interesting article also, check the paragraph People’s Democracy, a New State Form of the Proletarian Dictatorship. (it's the last one)

EDIT: Sorry I meant this: http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/a ... bolev2.htm ("the dictatorship of the proletariat" chapter)

This is directly connected to the "petit-bourgoise" character of some economy sectors you,ve already noticed.

First of all I must inform you that this "little shops" and petit-bourgois activity in general, is the capitalist crisis that have taken care of them.
In other words, they are closing down going bunkrupt, for the favor of large-scale, high concentration businesses/monopolies.

As usual, most people once feared that they were "the communists" to take their porperty away from them, but as it turns out -eventually- it is the large capital, and capitalism in its monopoly stage, to make them go bunkrupt and poor, in the proccess of capital's over-accummulation, and continuous profit, under such accumulation.
Actually, petit-bourgois, self-employed, little owners, are now victims of capitalism, and ofcourse are seen as allies of the working class. After all don't forget that many people would open a store to sell pies or coffee/drinks or whatever, exactly because they cannot find a job. A good one or on their field.

So it is capitalism to make things work for us in this point.
As for the rest low-concentration sectors, and if it's necessary there is the coοporative/collective form of ownership.

Quote:
Why rofl? Collaboration with the patriotic bourgeoisie is a common ML tactic against imperialist oppression.

Not sure if this was a good practice after all.. It turned out that it worked against the communist movement, since in the vast majority of the cases it merelly helped the "democratic" bourgoise get stronger and eventualy alienate and disarm the proletarian movement, or turned it to reformist/opportunist practices, of seeking better condition's within capitalism ..

Besides that, I'm tallking about the "european left" who are opporunists. They don't really want to bring socialism, just to make a "popular" capitalism ("a people friendly capitalism"). There is no "patriotic" bourgoisie in Greece. The big capital is subordinated to the bigger imperialist system. The greek bourgoisie is the one who sold out the country to imperialism, the imf the eu, world bankers etc.. The only "patriotic" bourgoisie in Greece could be considered the petit-bourgoisie. What oppotrunists mean with "collaboration with patriotic bourgoisie" is an election front, with the right wing party of ND, which is not a petit-bourgoisie party (it just plays the "anti-memorandum" card, only to get elected), or make some elements that deserted the big parties to join their "left" party.. The rest is just bulsh*t.. Stay in EU and euro, but at the same time "force" bankers, monopolies, and finaly EU itself, to follow a people friendy policy..
Well.. you cannot change capitalism...



PS: oh, and a friendly comment to forum's commisar's that this "one quote per time" policy is very impractical.. Now one won't know what the quote I answer to was answering ..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhQKmixO8MA
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Sep 2011, 11:23
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Post 19 Feb 2012, 01:37
An update on recent actions

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvpp4iPV1bo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhQKmixO8MA
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 16 Feb 2005, 02:51
Party Bureaucrat
Post 19 Feb 2012, 04:33
I don't like how they broke up the playing of Αρνιέμαι αρνιέμαι αρνιέμαι with the chanting.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 06 Dec 2009, 23:17
Philosophized
Post 19 Feb 2012, 09:26
Do you know who burned that oldest cinema theater in Athens a few days ago?
Why did they do it?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Sep 2011, 11:23
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Post 19 Feb 2012, 12:38
Loz wrote:
Do you know who burned that oldest cinema theater in Athens a few days ago?
Why did they do it?

You mean personally?


The anarchists. They burned many neo-classical, old buldings of athens, saying they were "capitalist targets" or the mentality "we burned athens omg we caused a revolt!!"
There is no reason, there is no ideology in this besides their slogans about "sabotage to the state and authority", as in everywhere. We know that amongst them there are agents of the security that also vandalizing crucial targets so they can later impose harder measures of clampdown or decry the popular movement.

Quote:
I don't like how they broke up the playing of Αρνιέμαι αρνιέμαι αρνιέμαι with the chanting.

Good.. you know this song?
I agree, however.This was my first notice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhQKmixO8MA
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