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Can a person be a Pantheist and a Marxist at the sametime my

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 01 Aug 2011, 09:53
Pioneer
Post 15 Sep 2011, 19:09
Can a person be a Pantheist and a Marxist at the sametime my understnding is that Albert Einstein was a Socialist and a Pantheist he spoke of God but did not mean a personal being known as God ?

http://www.pantheism.net/paul/faqs.htm

http://www.pantheism.net/paul/einstein.htm

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Einstein.htm
Soviet cogitations: 10005
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 15 Sep 2011, 19:22
Pantheism is much closer to Marxism than theistic religions are because it fits neatly into Hegelian dialectics, which are just one step away from Marxist philosophy. In fact, a Marxist might actually call themself a pantheist and define their God as matter, but that seems kind of nonsensical - why call it "God", when calling it "matter" will produce much less misunderstanding? (This one's kind of directed at you, Dagoth.)

Einstein was an atheist. What he called "God" were the mysteries of the universe. He had such a deep admiration for the mysteriousness of everything that he used religious metaphors to express it. He was also not a Marxist - he favored socialism because of a moral attachment to "social justice", but as far as I know, he never expressed any kind of distinctly Marxist thinking.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
Ideology: None
Philosophized
Post 15 Sep 2011, 19:39
Einstein wrote:
I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.

Pretty much says it all. Prayer is useless, good= what promotes harmony, evil= what detracts from it. Begging for money on TV= strictly for suckers.
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
Soviet cogitations: 5437
Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Sep 2009, 00:56
Ideology: Democratic Socialism
Unperson
Post 16 Sep 2011, 05:05
Einstein may have been a socialist but he wasn't a marxist. In fact he opposed Soviet communism. So it's pretty unsurprising that like many parliamentary socialists of his time he wasn't dogmatically atheist. I wonder if any of the Bolsheviks openly believed in God though...
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 20 Jul 2007, 06:59
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Forum Commissar
Post 16 Sep 2011, 09:41
A bit offtopic, but I have read many good things about Spinoza, both about his thinking and himself as a person. I have yet to read the man himself, though I was this close *extends index finger and thumb* to buying his ethics last weekend.

But, the ahem, more Marxist interpretations of Spinoza was that of a materialist, who had to present his views as pantheistic. More important than his religious views is probably his views on society, on the collective being the creator of freedom, as opposed to freedom being attributed to the individual.

I just checked and there's a book by a Warren Montag on Spinoza from a Marxist view.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 18 Apr 2010, 04:44
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Philosophized
Post 16 Sep 2011, 18:30
If you want to cheat somewhat, you can listen to this refreshingly irreverent but still reasonably informative podcast which details Spinoza's "Ethics" and gives a pretty decent overview of his philosophy.
Miss Strangelove: "You feed giants laxatives so goblins can mine their poop before the gnomes get to it."
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 29 Dec 2011, 10:43
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 22 Feb 2012, 08:50
I consider myself both a pantheist and a Marxist so yeah I dont think there is any contradiction. I think there is a difference between historical materialism and philosophical materialism, I only consider myself a historical materialist, but not a philosophical materialist, meaning that I accept the relavance of Marxist historical analysis without projecting it beyond its limited parameters, which is a mistake of 20th century Marxists as well as humanists and scientists. I think we know so little about the universe beyond what we have been able to grasp with our limited science that to make grand statements about the origin of the universe and the ultimate fate or existence of the soul are not warranted and I think there is room in the revolutionary socialist/marxist community for many different mythological and religious perspectives. To me being a Marxist is being commited to replacing capitalism with socialism, with the dictatorship of the proletariat, not with making grand statements about the soul and matter.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 22 Feb 2012, 15:59
I've read Spinoza's Ethics now. It's cute and quite respectable for a man who lived in the 17th century. I like how he completely demolishes the concept of God without ever denying it, sounds quite like Dagoth Ur, only that he's much more consistent.

Also if "philosophical materialism" isn't true, how do you know that histomat is?
Or if you accept histomat as true, what leads you to believe that there is some sphere of existence where materialism stops being true?
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 30 Mar 2010, 01:20
Ideology: None
Forum Commissar
Post 23 Feb 2012, 00:46
Do you have any idea how obnoxious you sound when you describe something like Spinoza's Ethics as "cute"?

(It might be a language thing, but I just thought you ought to know.)
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 23 Feb 2012, 04:38
lol no, I did not. In German, it would have been completely acceptable to describe Spinoza as "süß" (lit. "sweet", but also "cute" in a figurative sense). Then again, "cute" is probably more patronizing than that.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Jan 2011, 08:20
Komsomol
Post 23 Feb 2012, 09:49
Who is this "Spinoza" character?

My friend is a pantheist. He is somewhat left-leaning but not a Marxist. Or socialist for that matter.

I do not see a contradiction between pantheism or Marxism.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 14 Jul 2008, 20:01
Ideology: Trotskyism
Philosophized
Post 23 Feb 2012, 14:38
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Spinoza

You can pretty much draw a line in philosophical evolution: Spinoza -> Kant -> Hegel -> Marx. Spinoza was also a pantheist, that's why he's relevant here.
"Don't know why i'm still surprised with this shit anyway." - Loz
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Jan 2008, 19:10
Ideology: Marxism-Leninism
Komsomol
Post 24 Feb 2012, 16:41
Many in the Russian Marxist tradition were very interested in the role of Spinoza's pantheism in developing a monistic view of the world as opposed to all dualisms. Plekhanov in particular said that Marxism was a variety of Spinozism and that Spinoza was Marx without a beard. There is a very long history of Marxist dialogue with Spinoza both in the Western and Soviet traditions. Much of the Soviet philosophical discussions of materialism borrows heavily from Spinoza. In 19th century Germany, the time Hegel was writing, Spinozism and pantheism were used as epithets for atheistic-materialism.

Here is a large collection of links of the Spinoza-Marx connection- http://www.autodidactproject.org/bib/spinoza-marx.html

Also you mentioned specifically Einstein's brand of pantheism, and Einstein was likewise very influential on Soviet philosophy and was considered a naive dialectican. Marxists in general would not use the term pantheist, since they don't ascribe any divine quality to the universe. But in Spinoza and Einstein's sense the only thing "divine" about the pantheistic universe is the deterministic self-motion, and that Marxists do believe in. I think virtually any religious tradition is compatible with revolutionary socialism in that people of all faiths have taken egalitarian strands in their creed and combined it with socialism. Its only in the more abstract philosophical aspects that you find that most theistic positions are incompatible with the worldview of dialectical materialism. In this I would say that pantheism is unique among all theisms, in that it is entirely compatible with diamat.
Kamran Heiss
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Apr 2012, 21:28
New Comrade (Say hi & be nice to me!)
Post 13 Apr 2012, 21:43
Nature is a "God", as there is nothing more powerful or superior. It creates, it destroys, it molds. We are part of Nature, it is Physical and so are it's creations. Is this not what defines a God?

"Pantheism is nothing but sexed up Atheism."
- Richard Dawkins
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