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Che Guevara, the great "Stalinist"

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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Aug 2009, 17:53
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Post 10 Mar 2010, 12:17
This thread hasen't been written to slant Che Guevara or Stalin. On the Contrary, it was written to slant those that are Anti-Stalin yet still idolize Che Guevara.

Che Guevara was an Anti-Revisionist and a strong supporter of both Mao Tse Tung and Joseph Stalin, in Contrast to this he was both opposed to Trotsky and Khrushchev.

I'm honestly fed up of these Liberal Marxists idolizing Che Guevara as if he was more "humane", and Politically any different than Stalin or Mao. He hated Revisionists and would be very upset to see that Cuba has turned to Capitalism to the extent that it has.

"After the repression of the Cuban Trotskyists, Che Guevara spoke attempting to justify the repression saying; I have sworn before a picture of our old, much lamenated Comrade Stalin that I will not rest until I see these Capitalist octopuses completely annihilhated"

"Trotsky, along with Khrushchev, belongs to the category of the great revisionists". (December 4, 1965: Letter to Armando Mart)

"Trotsky was fundementally wrong... Trotskyists ultimately failed because their methods are bad". (Apuntes criticos a la Economia Politica, 1964).

"In November 1960, Che Guevara insisted on depositing a floral tribute at Stalin's tomb even against the advice of the Cuban Ambassador to the USSR." - It is important to remember that this was more than four years after Khrushchev's Anti-Stalin policies and process of "De-Stalinisation" started.

The point I'm trying to make is that Che Guevara was a staunch Anti-Revisionist and a strong supporter of Stalin. He hated Khrushchev and was very upset that Fidel Castro turned to Khrushchev instead of Mao.
“We are advocates of the abolition of war, we do not want war; but war can only be abolished through war, and in order to get rid of the gun it is necessary to take up the gun.” - Mao Tse Tung
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 26 Jun 2006, 15:59
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Post 10 Mar 2010, 12:53
Quote:
and was very upset that Fidel Castro turned to Khrushchev instead of Mao.


What evidence do you have for that?

Mao and Che's views on international socialist revolution couldn't have been more different. Mao was pimping his Three Worlds Theory and supporting pro-US capitalist dictators against socialist uprisings. (Or do you seriously think Che would have approved of Mao's support for Pinochet?)

If your hunting for 'revisionists' you should start with Mao.
The moment one accepts the notion of 'totalitarianism', one is firmly locked within the liberal-democratic horizon. - Slavoj Žižek
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 May 2008, 14:59
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Post 10 Mar 2010, 13:19
This thread should be titled "Radical, the great sectarian". Really this is the second thread you've posted with the same exact aim. Do you really have nothing better to discuss than slandering Trotskyists? Geez, this is what's wrong the communist movement now.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 28 Sep 2009, 00:56
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Post 10 Mar 2010, 14:04
Lord knows, maybe a Trotskyist raped his grandmother.

In any case, is there any particular reason why we should care what Che's thoughts were on this? He can disagree with my views but that doesn't mean I can't admire his achievements and contributions to Marxism. Maybe you should go back to the 1930s, where this sort of stupid sectarianism would actually get you paid a salary...
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 02 Mar 2004, 15:19
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Old Bolshevik
Post 10 Mar 2010, 14:59
Quote:
I have sworn before a picture of our old, much lamenated Comrade Stalin

Awesome typo.

However I think the whole premise of this article is ...well stupid. People so divided between Trotsky and Stalin (which as you point out, really is a division more between 'liberal' marxists and more 'conservative' marxists.) It's a series of quotes with no context (when the context would've been far more interesting than the quotes themselves.)

Anyways I'd critique more, but I can already see there are more replies that would basically sum up my thoughts.

Man you really hate anything that's not radical, don't you?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Feb 2008, 15:25
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Post 10 Mar 2010, 15:42
Quote:
capitalist dictators against socialist uprisings. (Or do you seriously think Che would have approved of Mao's support for Pinochet?)


Wait a minute. Mao definitely backed some stupid regimes, especially after the Sino-Soviet split (like Pol Pot's), but a quick search on the net couldn't find anything about him supporting Pinochet or similar regimes. Do you have a source?

I do believe Che did express an interest in Maoism and came to prefer it over the Soviet model. That doesn't mean he actually became a Maoist though. At the same time, I remember TIG posting something about him and Trotskyism. I imagine he would have read into it at some stage.
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Post 10 Mar 2010, 16:43
onelineonebullet
Last edited by Misuzu on 12 Mar 2010, 03:14, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: He sent a congratulatory letter to him after the coup.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 26 Jun 2006, 15:59
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Post 10 Mar 2010, 16:59
Does anyone have a copy of the letter, I can't seem to find it at the moment.

He also supported the UNITA in Angola (while Cuban troops were fighting against them).
The moment one accepts the notion of 'totalitarianism', one is firmly locked within the liberal-democratic horizon. - Slavoj Žižek
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 13 Feb 2008, 15:25
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Post 10 Mar 2010, 17:07
I really want to see sources for these things. Mao did some really stupid stuff after the split, but I have a hard time believing he actively supported Pinochet and UNITA.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Aug 2009, 17:53
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Post 10 Mar 2010, 17:53
Quote:
What evidence do you have for that?

Mao and Che's views on international socialist revolution couldn't have been more different. Mao was pimping his Three Worlds Theory and supporting pro-US capitalist dictators against socialist uprisings. (Or do you seriously think Che would have approved of Mao's support for Pinochet?)

If your hunting for 'revisionists' you should start with Mao.


Good job throwing around your ridiculous accusations.

Mao simply opposed Social-Imperialism, as did Lenin, Stalin and Hoxha and any other true Leninist.

Quote:
He also supported the UNITA in Angola (while Cuban troops were fighting against them).


Maybe because it was Social Imperialism? - Something which Maoists recognize and oppose.

Quote:
However I think the whole premise of this article is ...well stupid. People so divided between Trotsky and Stalin (which as you point out, really is a division more between 'liberal' marxists and more 'conservative' marxists.) It's a series of quotes with no context (when the context would've been far more interesting than the quotes themselves.)


There is no such thing as a "Conservative Marxist". "Liberal Marxist" is a term which was coined by Lenin to describe a Marxist with "Liberal Positions".

Quote:
This thread should be titled "Radical, the great sectarian". Really this is the second thread you've posted with the same exact aim. Do you really have nothing better to discuss than slandering Trotskyists? Geez, this is what's wrong the communist movement now.


This thread has nothing to do with opposing Trotskyism as a thought. It's a thread slanting those new-comers to Marxism that idolize Che as if he was a god, yet oppose the very fundemental beliefs he fought for - Such as his stance on Revisionism and Khrushchev.
Last edited by Radical on 10 Mar 2010, 18:06, edited 1 time in total.
“We are advocates of the abolition of war, we do not want war; but war can only be abolished through war, and in order to get rid of the gun it is necessary to take up the gun.” - Mao Tse Tung
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Post 10 Mar 2010, 18:05
onelineonebullet
Last edited by Misuzu on 12 Mar 2010, 03:11, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: How was it social imperialism?
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Aug 2009, 17:53
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Post 10 Mar 2010, 18:08
onelineonebullet
Last edited by Misuzu on 12 Mar 2010, 03:10, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: "Read about it."
“We are advocates of the abolition of war, we do not want war; but war can only be abolished through war, and in order to get rid of the gun it is necessary to take up the gun.” - Mao Tse Tung
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Post 10 Mar 2010, 18:14
onelineonebullet
Last edited by Misuzu on 12 Mar 2010, 03:22, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Wanna know how it wasn't? Read about it.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 09 May 2008, 14:59
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Post 11 Mar 2010, 00:49
Radical wrote:
This thread has nothing to do with opposing Trotskyism as a thought.


Radical wrote:
"Trotsky, along with Khrushchev, belongs to the category of the great revisionists". (December 4, 1965: Letter to Armando Mart)

"Trotsky was fundementally wrong... Trotskyists ultimately failed because their methods are bad". (Apuntes criticos a la Economia Politica, 1964).


Forgive me, but the choice of these two particular quotes seems to be just that. And really, what possible other purpose could this thread serve?

Radical wrote:
Che Guevara was an Anti-Revisionist and a strong supporter of both Mao Tse Tung and Joseph Stalin, in Contrast to this he was both opposed to Trotsky and Khrushchev.

The implication here seems to be that Trotsky was a revisionist. Being untrue, it also seems to be an slur in this context.

Radical wrote:
It's a thread slanting those new-comers to Marxism that idolize Che as if he was a god, yet oppose the very fundemental beliefs he fought for - Such as his stance on Revisionism and Khrushchev.


Do you believe that Che's beliefs were centered around a struggle against revisionism? If so, you're view of the communist movement in general is extremely slanted.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 15 Jan 2010, 05:28
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Post 11 Mar 2010, 01:58
Quote:
He hated Khrushchev and was very upset that Fidel Castro turned to Khrushchev instead of Mao.


Then why did he support North Vietnam, a beneficiary of Soviet aid? Thank goodness Cuba turned to Khrushchev, Mao gave Albania only 1/5 of what the Soviets gave them, and of course it all ended after Deng Xiaoping. Cuba would have been in the same boat.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Oct 2004, 22:04
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Post 11 Mar 2010, 03:17
Fellow Comrade, the wiki page on UNITA notes that China was among its supporters, as does Jonas Savimbi's page. It also says that Savimbi trained in China in the 1960s. A couple books I have, 'Communist Military Machine', ed. Ian Beckett and 'Guerilla Warfare', ed. John Pimlott confirm this. This is pretty common knowledge. The wiki article "Chile under Pinochet" notes that China and Romania maintained diplomatic relations with Chile after the coup, even while the Soviet Bloc, as well as Yugoslavia, North Korea and North Vietnam broke off relations.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 21 Dec 2004, 23:53
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Post 11 Mar 2010, 04:08
Che and Stalin an old S-E thread.

Radical wrote:
On the Contrary, it was written to slant those that are Anti-Stalin yet still idolize Che Guevara.


That is a vast pool of people. Che's "support" can be seen in Cuba, in Marxists, students and in national liberation struggles throughout the third world. Stalin's "support" today can be seen mainly in older Russians and Marxists. In both cases Marixst "support" depends.

Radical wrote:
Che Guevara was an Anti-Revisionist and a strong supporter of both Mao Tse Tung and Joseph Stalin, in Contrast to this he was both opposed to Trotsky and Khrushchev.


Che was a revolutionary. For better or for worse he didn't see the point in sectarianism in various Marist "isms." He was ready to fight in an armred struggle and those were his comrades.

Radical wrote:
I'm honestly fed up of these Liberal Marxists idolizing Che Guevara as if he was more "humane", and Politically any different than Stalin or Mao.


Liberals tend to frag up things like that and take something with revolutionary potential and kill it, i.e. che shirts. Che described himself as a "revolutionary humanist" in Critical Notes on Political Economy: A Revolutionary Humanist Approach to Marxist Economics. Revolutionary humanism is hardly similar to the strict homogeneous ideology Lenin envisioned of the vanguard party and Mao's people's war was hardly a foco. I'll agree though that there are many who try and paint Che as a "humane" person or a pacifist and with a quick history lesson they are proven incorrect.

Radical wrote:
He hated Revisionists and would be very upset to see that Cuba has turned to Capitalism to the extent that it has.


Opinion, but I honesty don't think Che would of ever been satisfied with where a Revolution is. He'd probably always see an area that could use improvement.

Radical wrote:
"After the repression of the Cuban Trotskyists, Che Guevara spoke attempting to justify the repression saying; I have sworn before a picture of our old, much lamenated Comrade Stalin that I will not rest until I see these Capitalist octopuses completely annihilhated"

"Trotsky, along with Khrushchev, belongs to the category of the great revisionists". (December 4, 1965: Letter to Armando Mart)


First quote is incorrect and has nothing to do with Trotsky:

Along the way, I had the opportunity to pass through the dominions of the United Fruit, convincing me once again of just how terrible these capitalist octopuses are. I have sworn before a picture of the old and mourned comrade Stalin that I won't rest until I see these capitalist octopuses annihilated.
Letter to his aunt Beatriz describing what he had seen while traveling through Guatemala (1953); as quoted in Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life (1997) by Jon Lee Anderson


Can't find the document of the letter to Armando Hart (I'm assuming that it is not Mart). But that would be when Che just returned to Cuba from Congo in secret. I find it unlikely that he was writing common letters to people. Also find it odd how you are quoting Armando Hart, who by my personal experience with Marxist-Leninists consider him a Trotskite.

Radical wrote:
The point I'm trying to make is that Che Guevara was a staunch Anti-Revisionist and a strong supporter of Stalin. He hated Khrushchev and was very upset that Fidel Castro turned to Khrushchev instead of Mao.


Actually you haven't given any proof relating to Mao at all. Furthermore Cuba as a whole wasn't able to turn to the PRC. It was just finished its war in Korea and wasn't able to promote the international revolution as well as the USSR was.

Furthermore you should know that damn near every anti-revisionist and anti-trot party in Latin America (i.e. the official Communist Party) didn't agree with Che's view on revolutions. And it was not just Khrushchev's view on Latin America, Stalin had the same belief and before that Lenin.

Indigo wrote:
Do you really have nothing better to discuss than slandering Trotskyists? Geez, this is what's wrong the communist movement now.


Although sectarianism is a problem with Marxists; it is hardly the main reason we haven't been sucessful. Looking historically at Revolutions in the past there was a great deal of sectarianism.

WCManiacal wrote:
People so divided between Trotsky and Stalin


Kirvo and I both agree that the S-E needs more Stalin v. Trotsky pissing contest flame wars. I miss Greggers and TIG's debates.

Fellow Comrade wrote:
I really want to see sources for these things. Mao did some really stupid stuff after the split, but I have a hard time believing he actively supported Pinochet and UNITA.


Not aware of any material support but the PRC did send Pinochet a letter of congrats after his coup against Allende. Heard similar things about UNITA and the mujahideen.

Radical wrote:
Maybe because it was Social Imperialism? - Something which Maoists recognize and oppose.


Wait Mao supports UNITA because of social imperialism? what the hell. First Cuba is a third world nation that supported the MPLA against the US & apartheid South Africa's UNITA. Supporting UNITA because of anti-imperialism doesn't make any sense.

Lastly let me state that this is revisionism.
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Post 11 Mar 2010, 04:15
Thank you for the info Soviet and Red Rebel. I honestly didn't know that he supported them (I knew about Afghanistan of course). I haven't done a great deal of study of Angola and Chile as yet. I think I've already made it pretty clear, but just to make it crystal, I don't support Mao or his ideology past the GLF and Sino/Soviet split. He was great revolutionary leader and I think did a good job in the early days post revolution. His problem was becoming too idealistic and unrealistic as time went by. Any Socialist who admires him after that point has a lot of learning to do.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 10 Sep 2006, 22:05
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Post 11 Mar 2010, 04:47
Agreed with rad rabble and kirvo. I learned a lot from the old tig vs greggers shit storms. Unfotunately this is all we've got to go with now, cliche regurgitated anti-trot propaganda.

Also on the point of "liberal marxists": anyone who tries to claim that Trotsky would have been more peaceful than Stalin is a fragging moron and clearly not familiar with Trotskyist theory whatsoever. It's a common problem among stalinists as well, a total lack of even basic firsthand experience with Trotsky's works.
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Defected to the U.S.S.R.: 07 Aug 2009, 17:53
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Post 11 Mar 2010, 06:30
Quote:
Also on the point of "liberal marxists": anyone who tries to claim that Trotsky would have been more peaceful than Stalin is a fragging moron and clearly not familiar with Trotskyist theory whatsoever. It's a common problem among stalinists as well, a total lack of even basic firsthand experience with Trotsky's works.


Sorry but it was Lenin and Stalin that wanted the 1.2 million Kulaks executed. Trotsky opposed this.

Coulden't that be seen as being "more peaceful"?

Quote:
It's a common problem among stalinists as well, a total lack of even basic firsthand experience with Trotsky's works.


Considering that your using the term "Stalinist", I'd say you have no understanding of Lenins works, let alone Trotskys.

Quote:
Furthermore you should know that damn near every anti-revisionist and anti-trot party in Latin America (i.e. the official Communist Party) didn't agree with Che's view on revolutions. And it was not just Khrushchev's view on Latin America, Stalin had the same belief and before that Lenin.


There is nothing Anti-Revisionist within Che Guevara's theories on Revolution. As a member of an Anti-Revisionist party that fully understands Focoism, we support his ideas.

I'd like to see what Anti-Revisionists seem to "oppose" about Che's Revolutionary Strategy. I've read Guerilla Warfare and it's entirely compatible with our ideas, and we support it, but feel it's out-dated in some countries and could be edited to be a more advanced theory.

Quote:
Any Socialist who admires him after that point has a lot of learning to do.


Tell that to the Revolutionaries in Nepal and India who have achieved more than any other Socialist Revolutonary Movement in the last 40 years.
Last edited by Radical on 11 Mar 2010, 06:45, edited 6 times in total.
“We are advocates of the abolition of war, we do not want war; but war can only be abolished through war, and in order to get rid of the gun it is necessary to take up the gun.” - Mao Tse Tung
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