Lend-Lease Aid

Kamrat Johan wrote:

Will you at least admit that the Soviet Union could have won the war without Lend-lease aid? Maybe not quite as fast, although I think so, but that victory would have been their's never the less.

That has never been questioned. It was still pretty fragging far from useless as some people here like to think, don't you agree?

Red Rebel wrote:

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Some interesting Lend-Lease information. To add to all of this, I've seen photographs from American Fighter factories in WW2 in western New York. They show literally hundreds of fighters in USSR colors being readied for delivery to the Soviets...

I didn't think the US painted the materials the shipped to the Soviets in Soviet colors.

Yes, they did. In the case of fighters at least. I've seen the pictures. It's not propaganda...it's simple truth.

Whether you folks want to admit to it or not, Lend-Lease helped the Soviets out a lot--whether you wish to admit to it or not doesn't matter.

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Yes, they did. In the case of fighters at least. I've seen the pictures. It's not propaganda...it's simple truth.

I don't suppose you have any of those pictures?

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Whether you folks want to admit to it or not, Lend-Lease helped the Soviets out a lot--whether you wish to admit to it or not doesn't matter.

The US did not give the Soviets vast military support, but instead food, supplies, and equipment. I will agree that this did help the USSR alot.

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I don't suppose you have any of those pictures?

I do. But not in electronic format. When I get my scanner back from my parents I'll post them if you wish. I've also seen similar pictures in several published books. Lemme see if I can find a link.

Well, a simple Google search turns up a few solo shots of US-built planes in Soviet markings, but I found a nice pic in one of the WW2 books I own that might help if you can get access to it, either online or in book format. It's from 'The Illustrated History of Fighting Aircraft' by Bill Gunston. The book isn't filled with minutia, but on page 104-105 it shows a similar picture of the ones I have of P-63 Kingcobras built in Buffalo, NY, for the Soviets. The pic shows what I am saying nicely.

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The US did not give the Soviets vast military support, but instead food, supplies, and equipment. I will agree that this did help the USSR alot.

The US did supply the Soviets with thousands of fighters and tanks, and tens of thousands of jeeps and transport vehicles. As well as tons of other stuff.

That said, did this support win the war on the Eastern front? No. The Soviets won that war. But the US-supplied (and other allies stuff as well) equipment did a lot to help things.

If what I'm saying isn't true, then why did Russia agree with what I am saying and also agree to finally pay back the US in lend-lease recently?

Red Rebel wrote:

The US did not give the Soviets vast military support, but instead food, supplies, and equipment. I will agree that this did help the USSR alot.

It depends what you consider "vast". Lend-lease aid gave 18 700 fighters, 10 800 tanks and 9 600 artillery pieces. 12% of fighters, 12% of tanks and 2% of artillery pieces in USSR army was from US.

West military support was important to USSR but not decisive.

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Red Rebel wrote:

The US did not give the Soviets vast military support, but instead food, supplies, and equipment. I will agree that this did help the USSR alot.

It depends what you consider "vast". Lend-lease aid gave 18 700 fighters, 10 800 tanks and 9 600 artillery pieces. 12% of fighters, 12% of tanks and 2% of artillery pieces in USSR army was from US.

West military support was important to USSR but not decisive.

Still these tanks and fighters were not top quality goods. The USSR was given outdated equipment (which they still needed) if the US would have given them better equipment the war would have been over quicker. Instead the US used the USSR to draw Germanys fire.

The US and England gave the Soviets the SAME equipment that they themselves used throughout the entire war.

The US did not use the USSR in any way. They were allies.

Learn some history.

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The US and England gave the Soviets the SAME equipment that they themselves used throughout the entire war.

The US did not use the USSR in any way. They were allies.

Learn some history.

Yeah they were great allies. Winston Churchill was just joking when he was speaking agianst communism and the danger Russia was since WW1. Also Cold War was a joke between the US and the USSR were just really friends.

Get real. The Western Allies were allied with the USSR because they all hated Germany. Also if they were such great friends how come the US would not help the USSR or England for that matter when they were being destroyed by Germany.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

The survival of England was the US first priority. Not only were they friends (allies -definition- two groups that will help each other if one is attacked) but the US needed England to strike Hitlers "Fortress Europe."

Red Rebel wrote:

Yeah they were great allies. Winston Churchill was just joking when he was speaking agianst communism and the danger Russia was since WW1. Also Cold War was a joke between the US and the USSR were just really friends.

Get real. The Western Allies were allied with the USSR because they all hated Germany. Also if they were such great friends how come the US would not help the USSR or England for that matter when they were being destroyed by Germany.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

The survival of England was the US first priority. Not only were they friends (allies -definition- two groups that will help each other if one is attacked) but the US needed England to strike Hitlers "Fortress Europe."

I didn't say 'friends'...I said 'allies'. And everything you said doesn't disprove anything that I said. I know WW2 history...most history in fact...extremely well. I know why the USSR and US/England were allies.

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I didn't say 'friends'...I said 'allies'. And everything you said doesn't disprove anything that I said. I know WW2 history...most history in fact...extremely well. I know why the USSR and US/England were allies.

If the US and England were allied than the US would have helped England out during the first part of WW2.

I know history too. The USSR and England + US were allied because they both hated Germany. If you know another reason than say it.

The US did help out England in the first part of the war. Lend-Lease to England was going on way before it was to the USSR.

The United States was safeguarding Greenland and Iceland and declared a gigantic 'neutral zone' around their coasts (along the lines of 300 miles).

The Americans were using warships and aircraft and subs to support convoys to England--It was two American-piloted planes that discovered the Bismark on patrol, for instance.

The United States gave England dozens of older destroyers to help their convoys as well.

The United States was also supplying Free-French forces in Northern Arfrica and refitting french warships in American naval yards.

The United States was heavily involved in the Atlantic war WAY before it officially declared war.

And yes--the USSR/USA/England alliance was one of a common hatred for the Germans--I agreed with you on that.

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The United States gave England dozens of older destroyers to help their convoys as well.

These 50 destroyers were relics from the Great War. Also besides asking for money back the US also wanted (and got) a 99 year leases for American naval and air bases in British possessions from Newfoundland to British Guiana in the Western Hemisphere.

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The United States was also supplying Free-French forces in Northern Arfrica and refitting french warships in American naval yards.

I seem to recall England attacking the French fleet so it was not captured for the Germans. If the US did help France they were hurting England.

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The United States was heavily involved in the Atlantic war WAY before it officially declared war.

The United States was safeguarding Greenland and Iceland and declared a gigantic 'neutral zone' around their coasts (along the lines of 300 miles).

I know it was to protect their intrests.

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The Americans were using warships and aircraft and subs to support convoys to England--It was two American-piloted planes that discovered the Bismark on patrol, for instance.

Do you have a source? I am not familiar with this version of finding the Bismark. I thought it was discovered in a fiords by a Spitfire.

As I said before, although military aid was horrid and absolutely inconsequential, the aid to the commoners was very helpful.

My Grandmother in Kiev still remembers that she would get a package from the USA every few weeks with food and clothing. She remembers that rather well.

Although the lend-lease aid had a minimal part in the USSR's military effort, the commoners benefited.

Also, the weapons sent by the USA were horrible. Anyone remember the Sherman? Soviets called it the "zajikalka", meaning "lighter" because of it's tendency to burst into flame.

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My Grandmother in Kiev still remembers that she would get a package from the USA every few weeks with food and clothing. She remembers that rather well.

Although the lend-lease aid had a minimal part in the USSR's military effort, the commoners benefited.

That is very intresting. Thanks Comrade Vlad!

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Also, the weapons sent by the USA were horrible. Anyone remember the Sherman? Soviets called it the "zajikalka", meaning "lighter" because of it's tendency to burst into flame.

Red Rebel wrote:

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These 50 destroyers were relics from the Great War. Also besides asking for money back the US also wanted (and got) a 99 year leases for American naval and air bases in British possessions from Newfoundland to British Guiana in the Western Hemisphere.

Yeah, they were old, which I stated. They were also of gigantic help to the English. It came down to this: Do you escort your convoys with nothing, or something that's outdated but helps?

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I seem to recall England attacking the French fleet so it was not captured for the Germans. If the US did help France they were hurting England.

The English didn't attack the whole French Fleet. Nor did all of the French surrender. America took up responsibility to help supply and organize those still resisting.

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The United States was heavily involved in the Atlantic war WAY before it officially declared war.

The United States was safeguarding Greenland and Iceland and declared a gigantic 'neutral zone' around their coasts (along the lines of 300 miles).

I know it was to protect their intrests.

It was also to protect the huge amount of convoys headed towards england. The fact that it had the side-effect of protecting American borders doesn't take away from the fact that Americans were fighting and dying in the Atlantic way before they were officially in the war.

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The Americans were using warships and aircraft and subs to support convoys to England--It was two American-piloted planes that discovered the Bismark on patrol, for instance.

Do you have a source? I am not familiar with this version of finding the Bismark. I thought it was discovered in a fiords by a Spitfire.

I'll find a source in a bit and attach it to this post as an edit. Two american-piloted British craft (Cantalonas or something similar) spotted the Bismark.

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The English didn't attack the whole French Fleet. Nor did all of the French surrender. America took up responsibility to help supply and organize those still resisting.

I assume you are not talking about the France's Mediterranean Fleet which was destroyed by England, or surrendered/captured by the Germans. I know France was a world power so do you know which fleet (and where it was stationed) the US helped.

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Yeah, they were old, which I stated. They were also of gigantic help to the English. It came down to this: Do you escort your convoys with nothing, or something that's outdated but helps?

True enough.

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It was also to protect the huge amount of convoys headed towards england. The fact that it had the side-effect of protecting American borders doesn't take away from the fact that Americans were fighting and dying in the Atlantic way before they were officially in the war.

If the US was 'fighting and dying' before Pearl Harbor they would have entered the war just like WWI with the Lusitania (spelling?). So I guess you don't know of any US ships that were sunk before they entered the war.

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I'll find a source in a bit and attach it to this post as an edit. Two american-piloted British craft (Cantalonas or something similar) spotted the Bismark.

It is very possible American piolits found the Bismark (and in a British plane makes more sense). But were the Americans volunteers or something else?

Red Rebel wrote:

I assume you are not talking about the France's Mediterranean Fleet which was destroyed by England, or surrendered/captured by the Germans. I know France was a world power so do you know which fleet (and where it was stationed) the US helped.

Here are some facts about French ships refitted in the US during WW2:

Bearn-Class Aircraft Carrier Bearn (Converted into aircraft transport)
Richeilieu-Class Battleship Richelieu. (This is after the British damaged her and she switched over to Free-French)
Eimile Bertin-Class Cruiser Emilr Berton
4 Le Fantasque-Class Destroyers (Le Malin, Le Fantastique, Le Terrible, Le Triomphant)

Other French Ships that fought on the Allied side in WW2:

2 Duquesne-Class Cruisers
Suffren-class Cruiser Suffren

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If the US was 'fighting and dying' before Pearl Harbor they would have entered the war just like WWI with the Lusitania (spelling?). So I guess you don't know of any US ships that were sunk before they entered the war.

US Ship and Atlantic actions before their official entry into WW2:

1939

Oct 16. Ranger (CV-4) and San Francisco (CA-38) are mobilized to locate and trail German tanker departed Tampico, Mexico, for Admiral Graf Spee.

1940

May 3 . Greenland, a crown colony of Denmark, seeks U.S. protection, so that Danish sovereignty can be maintained during the German occupation of the homeland.
Nov 16. Destroyer McCormick (DD-223), on neutrality patrol off Tampico, Mexico, radios attempt of German freighter Orinoco to make for European waters. Destroyer Plunkett (DD-431), by her presence, thwarts German tanker Phrygia's bid for freedom; Phrygia's crew scuttles her.
Dec 8 . Destroyer Sturtevant (DD-240) stands by while British light cruiser HMS Diomede intercepts German freighter Idarwald.
Dec 11. German freighter Rhein, having been tailed by destroyer Simpson (DD-221) and, later, MacLeish (DD-220), is intercepted by Dutch destroyer leader Van Kinsbergen near the Florida Straits, and is scuttled by her own crew to avoid capture. MacLeish and McCormick (DD-223) are present as the German ship's bid to escape fails.

1941

March 1. Support Force Atlantic Fleet established for protection of convoys in North Atlantic.
Mar 17. Coast Guard cutter Cayuga takes South Greenland Survey Expedition, US representatives to locate sites of bases on Greenland's soil.
Mar 27. ABC Conference. Atlantic Fleet is to help the Royal Navy convoy ships across the Atlantic. The agreement inextricably links the U.S. Navy in the effort against Germany.
Mar 30. U S seizes Axis ships in US ports.
April 10. Niblack (DD-424) a new, Benson class destroyer on "Neutrality Patrol", rescuing survivors, depth charged a contact off Iceland.
Apr 10. FDR authorizes the transfer of 10 "Lake"-class Coast Guard cutters to the Royal Navy. Transfers completed Apr 30-May 30.
Apr 18. US declares Greenland and Iceland in its sphere of interest.
Apr 24. Neutrality Patrol is extended east to 26°W, Iceland, and 20°S, almost to Rio.
Apr 26. US to supply French North Africa.
May 22. Part of US Pacific fleet ordered to Atlantic.
May 24. USN PBYs from Newfoundland search for Bismarck in the western Atlantic.
May 26. USN observers flying two separate RAF Catalinas sight Bismarck. British fleet units converge on the lone German capital ship.
May 27. Roosevelt proclaims unlimited state of emergency, including delivery of supplies to Britain, because of Axis battleship incursion of western Atlantic.
May 27. Elements of Pacific fleet move to Atlantic patrol.
May 29. US begins "Neutrality Patrols" in North, Central and Southern Atlantic.
June 12. Naval Reserve called to active duty.
June 14. US freezes German and Italian assets.
June 16. US closed German and Italian consulates.
June 20. FDR addresses Congress concerning the German sinking of U.S. freighter Robin Moor.
July 4 . US marines under US air cover relieve British troops in Iceland for duty elsewhere.
Aug 9 . Atlantic Charter, a strategy meeting in Newfoundland between President FDR and Prime Minister WSC. Agree, when the US enters the war, Germany first. US warships to escort British merchant ships between the United States and Iceland.
Sept 4 . Recommissioned destroyer Greer (DD-145), tracked U-652 for several hours. Each attacked the other without injury.
Sep 10 . First Liberator bomber to England.
Sep 11. FDR broadcasts "shoot on sight" order.
Sep 12. Coast Guard cutters seize Norwegian trawler Buskoe in Mackenzie Bay, Greenland, thwarting establishing German radio weather stations.
Oct 5 . Naval Conference between US and British commanders in Sinapore.
Oct 16-Nov 1. DDs escorting Atlantic convoy make depth charge attacks daily after six merchant ships sunk in five hours.
Oct 25-Nov 8. Yorktown (CV-5), New Mexico (BB-41), and 11 other American warships were screening convoys to and from MOMP.
Oct 28. Screening destroyer Anderson picked up a submarine contact and dropped depth charges noticing "considerable oil slick".
Nov 1-4. PBYs and PBMs provide air coverage for convoy ON 31.
Nov 4 . Omaha (CL-4), Memphis (CL-13) and 3 DDs search for German surface raider.
Nov 6 . Omaha (CL-4) and Somers (DD-381), en route to Recife, Brazil, returning from the 3,023-mile patrol, captures German blockade runner Odenwald, disguised as U.S. freighter Willmoto, in Atlantic equatorial waters . See reader provided story.
Nov 10. First United States-escorted troop convoy, transporting more than 20,000 British troops, in six USN ships sailed from Halifax for the Far East.
Nov 10-20. DDs attack numerous sound contacts.
Nov 11. Lend Lease for de Gaulle's Free French.
Nov 11. Navy ordered to attack any vessel threatening US shipping.
Nov 13. Amend Neutrality Act: arm US ships, enter war zones.
Nov 17. Archer (BAVG 1) is the first of 38 escort carriers transferred to the UK during the war under Lend-Lease program.
Nov 25. US troops to Dutch Guiana to protect bauxite mines.
Dec 3 . Turkey has "for sometime" been receiving lend lease aid.

Recorded German actions against the US in the Atlantic before US entry into WW2


1941

Jan 30. Germany announces that ships of any nationality bringing aid to Great Britain will be torpedoed.
Apr 17. Neutral Egyptian steamship Zamzam is shelled and sunk by German auxiliary cruiser Atlantis (Schiffe 16) in South Atlantic; 138 Americans (including 24 ambulance drivers) are among rescued passengers . See reader provided story.
May 21. Unarmed U.S. freighter Robin Moor, en route to South Africa and Mozambique, is stopped and sunk by German submarine U-69 (torpedo and gunfire) about 700 miles off the west coast of Africa. First American merchantman sunk by a U-boat in World War II. Crew given food and directions by submarine.
Sep 7 . SS Steel Seafarer bombed and sunk in Red Sea.
Oct 17. Kearney (DD-432) escorting a convoy was attacked by U-boat off the coast of Iceland with 11 killed.
Oct 19. Unarmed U.S. freighter Lehigh is torpedoed and sunk by German submarine U-126 off Freetown, Sierra Leone
Oct 28. Oiler Salinas (AO-19), in convoy ON 28, is torpedoed by German submarine U-106 about 700 miles east of Newfoundland.
Oct 31. Reuben James (DD-245), an older destroyer on convoy duty west of Iceland, was sunk by U-boat with loss of 115 men.
Oct 31. DuPont (DD-152) is attacked by U-boat, but missed.
Dec 2 . German submarine U-43 torpedoes and sinks unarmed U.S. tanker Astral and her 37 man crew.
Dec 3 . Unarmed U.S. freighter Sagadahoc is torpedoed and sunk by German submarine U-124 in South Atlantic.

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It is very possible American piolits found the Bismark (and in a British plane makes more sense). But were the Americans volunteers or something else?

The information was included in the above data.

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Bearn-Class Aircraft Carrier Bearn (Converted into aircraft transport)
Richeilieu-Class Battleship Richelieu. (This is after the British damaged her and she switched over to Free-French)
Eimile Bertin-Class Cruiser Emilr Berton
4 Le Fantasque-Class Destroyers (Le Malin, Le Fantastique, Le Terrible, Le Triomphant)

When where these ships refitted. It would be my guess that it would be after the US joined the war.

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US Ship and Atlantic actions before their official entry into WW2:

Still the US (and their allies) let the Axis get away with so many preventable attrocities. The worst they did was put trade embargos on those countries and told them what they were doing was wrong.

Red Rebel wrote:

When where these ships refitted. It would be my guess that it would be after the US joined the war.

Yes, but only just. The plans were in place before US entry into the war.

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Still the US (and their allies) let the Axis get away with so many preventable attrocities. The worst they did was put trade embargos on those countries and told them what they were doing was wrong.

You asked for evidence that the US was involved in the war before its official declaration. I supplied it. Now you say that it doesn't matter, the US didn't do anything? The US was actively hunting German naval assets in the Atlantic and protecting foreign territory from the Germans. The US took losses in both civilian AND military vessels. All of this was before they officially entered WW2.

I've shown you the proof that you asked for, which also invalidated an earlier statement of yours about me not being to show such evidence. The proof id right in front of your eyes. Believe it or not...It's your choice.

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Still the US (and their allies) let the Axis get away with so many preventable attrocities. The worst they did was put trade embargos on those countries and told them what they were doing was wrong.[/quote]

What about Soviets? Trained over 250 officers, some that become high ranking nazis, Guderian. NOTICE : This was before ww2.

Made the pact with Germany that split eastern-europe between them, suplied Germans with resources and allowed Germans free hands in west.

And you are whining because yanks did not enter war right from the start?