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27 Jul 2010, 07:36
Quote:Former Khmer Rouge prison chief Duch has been found guilty of crimes against humanity by Cambodia's UN-backed war crimes tribunal.
Duch, 67, whose full name is Kaing Guek Eav, was sentenced to 35 years in prison.
Khmer Rouge Trials
He had admitted overseeing the torture and execution of thousands of men, women and children at the notorious Tuol Sleng prison, and asked for forgiveness.
Prosecutors had asked the judges for a 40-year prison sentence.
However, Duch will not serve the full 35 allotted years as judges reduced the sentence by five years because he had been held illegally, and reduced it by a further 11 years for time already served behind bars.
Wearing a blue shirt, the former Khmer Rouge jailer looked pensive and slumped in his chair as proceedings were held behind a floor-to-ceiling bullet-proof screen which separated the public gallery from the rest of the court.
Reading out the sentence, the president of the five-judge panel said it reflected the "shocking and heinous" nature of the offences.
Crowds of Cambodians attended the specially built court on the outskirts of the capital, Phnom Penh, to hear the verdict, which was also broadcast live across the country.
Some said they wanted a tougher sentence. "There is no justice. I wanted life imprisonment for Duch," said Hong Sovath, whose father was killed in Tuol Sleng.
"I can't accept this," Saodi Ouch, 46, told the Associated Press news agency. "My family died... my older sister, my older brother. I'm the only one left."
A sense of justice after 30 years mingled with disappointment at the sentence handed down to Duch.
The judges deducted 16 years from the time the former prison chief must serve after being found guilty of crimes against humanity. Some for time already served, the rest because they ruled Duch had been held in pre-trial detention too long.
It was received as an insult by some people who had lived through the horrors of the Pol Pot era. At least one man left the court in disgust.
Others at least found satisfaction that after three decades a significant member of the Khmer Rouge had at last been brought to account. Now they hope that other trials will follow.
Members of some of the groups that were specifically targeted by the Khmer Rouge were in court. Orange-robed Buddhist monks and Cham Muslims wearing white skull caps gathered round a big screen TV outside the main chamber.
But Chea Leang, one of the co-prosecutors, said the sentence showed that those who committed crimes during the Khmer Rouge era would be punished.
"Those who have taken many lives cannot avoid justice," she said.
Summary execution
Duch ran Tuol Sleng prison, where "enemies" of the Khmer Rouge regime were sent.
Up to two million people died because of the policies of the Khmer Rouge, which ruled Cambodia from 1975-1979.
Their policies included the evacuation of cities, forced labour in the rice fields and the summary execution of those considered enemies of the revolution.
The group's top leader, "Brother Number One" Pol Pot, died in 1998.
Duch, the first of five surviving senior figures of the Khmer Rouge to go on trial, was widely expected to be found guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity by the court.
Despite acknowledging the role he played at Tuol Sleng, codenamed "S-21", he insisted that he had only been following orders from his superiors, and on the trial's final day in November shocked many by asking to be acquitted.
But prosecutors said the former maths teacher ordered the use of brutal torture methods to extract "confessions" from detainees - including pulling out toenails and administering electric shocks - and approved all the executions.
A meticulous record-keeper, Duch built up a huge archive of photos, confessions and other evidence documenting those held at Tuol Sleng.
In one memo he kept, a guard asked him what to do with six boys and three girls accused of being traitors. He replied: "Kill every last one."
After the Khmer Rouge were overthrown, Duch disappeared for almost two decades, living under various aliases in north-western Cambodia and converting to Christianity. His chance discovery by a British journalist led to his arrest in 1999.
Only about a dozen people who were held at Tuol Sleng are thought to have survived, three of whom are still alive. Up to 17,000 people are believed to have died there.
The other Khmer Rouge leaders awaiting trial are "Brother Number Two" Nuon Chea, former head of state Khieu Samphan, former foreign minister Ieng Sary and his wife Ieng Thirith, the minister of social affairs.
Part of me cant help but question of he himself has become the scapegoat of atrocity.... He's obviously made the point he was just following orders but that realistically is no excuse for the crimes committed.
What are your thoughts on all of this?
13 Sep 2010, 02:40
I don't give a shit about the Democratic Kampuchea regime. All the responsible officers of that criminal band should be shot.
19 Sep 2010, 12:00
These sorts of people are dreadful enemies of Socialism. How many years is it going to take to undo the damage done by these maniacs. In fifty years time we will still be having to explain why these assholes are traitors to the cause.
I don't understand why the current regime is letting these sorts of sentences through. Are they seeking to perpetuate the resentment with the past? How much is this determined by the U.N. and how much by the country itself?
RedSword wrote:I'm not a big fan of the death penalty, but these savages make it pretty hard to argue against it. The fact that he was not given at least "Life" is an insult to everyone involved.I don't give a shit about the Democratic Kampuchea regime. All the responsible officers of that criminal band should be shot.
I don't understand why the current regime is letting these sorts of sentences through. Are they seeking to perpetuate the resentment with the past? How much is this determined by the U.N. and how much by the country itself?
19 Sep 2010, 18:28
Maybe the article said it, but I didn't see it, Would Cambodia deliver a death sentence in this regard, or are do they not do that? Or is the UN making sure they don't?
19 Sep 2010, 23:30
Shigalyov wrote:These sorts of people are dreadful enemies of Socialism. How many years is it going to take to undo the damage done by these maniacs.
I agree. The Khmer Rouge were a stain to the socialist movement and the leaders should have been executed Mussolini-style by the people. Their policies devastated the nation and allowed the monarchy to return to Cambodia.
25 Oct 2010, 17:26
In my opinion, an "international tribunal" set up by the US has no legitimacy. Moreover, why doesn't it prosecute Hun Sen and Kissinger too? Hun Sen tortured political prisoners and killed a lot of people while he was head of the Viet Nam-backed puppet regime, Kissinger was Nixon's advisor during the bombing of Cambodia. Apparently this tribunal has the only purpose of shielding the real guilty.
Moreover, Democratic Kampuchea gave the Cambodian people everything they no longer have, independence above all.
Moreover, Democratic Kampuchea gave the Cambodian people everything they no longer have, independence above all.
25 Oct 2010, 17:51
Wait wait. You support "Democratic Kampuchea" more than, say, Yugoslavia? Why? I mean I'm prepared to believe that what we hear about Cambodia in the West is the same kind of lies we hear about Stalin and the DPRK, but as yet, I haven't found anything to indicate this. Unless of course you believe it's all true and still support Pol Pot, in which case you must be a very weird person, to say the least.
25 Oct 2010, 18:13
Quote:Moreover, Democratic Kampuchea gave the Cambodian people everything they no longer have, independence above all.
Dem. Kampuchea was ruled by a gang of idiots,lunatics and imperialist agents!
Guess who gave aid to the "Khmer" guerrilla after the Vietnamese overthrew their gruesome tyranny? The CIA!
Pol Pot and his degenerates destroyed the country,reverted it to the Middle Age and killed many of it's best people-intellectuals(or everyone who had glasses).
To call the Khmer Rouge "socialist" or "communist" is a morbid provocation.
26 Oct 2010, 04:52
Why did he get 35 years he was only a chef just trying to survive the Khmer Rouge regime.
26 Oct 2010, 18:01
I'm not saying that Democratic Kampuchea was free of mistakes and shortcomings. But a lot of lies are circulating about it. Who did actually read its documents? The first thing the revolutionary government did, was to build roads, people's hospitals outside the capital, to fight sickness; it held elections; it educated the people, and illitteracy literally fell. Moreover, the massacre of intellectuals is a fake (many government officials had glasses, by the way): it is rather true that, before the revolution, science was a privilege of wealthy classes, while it was popularized after 1975.
As for the dead, usually we hear that Pol Pot killed 2-3 million people between 1975 and 1979, when his government was in place. According to a Finnish inquiry commission (not a communist source, apparently!), those numbers are true, but they refere to the entire 1970s, a period that saw Lon Nol's dictatorship, US bomings, DK, and the Vietnamese invasion.
And who ordered the Vietnamese to invade Cambodia and overthrow its revolution?
Moreover, the fact that the CIA financed the Khmer Rouge is a popular fake. After the Vietnamese invasion, a unity government was formed between the Khmer Rouge and the royalists of former King Norodom Sihanouk. The US financed the royalists because they were anti-Soviet, surely not the Khmer Rouge! In fact, after the royalists agreed to take part at the fake-elections in 1991 (or 1990, I'm not so sure) and the Khmer Rouge continued to fight, the US aid "misteriously" ended.
As for the dead, usually we hear that Pol Pot killed 2-3 million people between 1975 and 1979, when his government was in place. According to a Finnish inquiry commission (not a communist source, apparently!), those numbers are true, but they refere to the entire 1970s, a period that saw Lon Nol's dictatorship, US bomings, DK, and the Vietnamese invasion.
Quote:Guess who gave aid to the "Khmer" guerrilla after the Vietnamese overthrew their gruesome tyranny? The CIA!
And who ordered the Vietnamese to invade Cambodia and overthrow its revolution?
Moreover, the fact that the CIA financed the Khmer Rouge is a popular fake. After the Vietnamese invasion, a unity government was formed between the Khmer Rouge and the royalists of former King Norodom Sihanouk. The US financed the royalists because they were anti-Soviet, surely not the Khmer Rouge! In fact, after the royalists agreed to take part at the fake-elections in 1991 (or 1990, I'm not so sure) and the Khmer Rouge continued to fight, the US aid "misteriously" ended.
26 Oct 2010, 18:07
Highly interesting. More info, please? Statistics, reports, pictures maybe? I'll have to admit that we know far less about Democratic Kampuchea than about the DPRK even, so I think it's awesome that we have a new member who seems to be informed.
26 Oct 2010, 18:48
Sure.
According to a speech given by Pol Pot during his visit in China in 1977, a campaign began in 1975 to increase grain production which was mainly completed by 1976. Farmers were gathered in cooperatives and State-owned farms. Honorary awards (such as the "Honorary Red Flag") were given to best factories and farms. Agriculture was seen as the basic factor to develop industry later.
In 1976 a literacy campaign began, giving basic education to 80% of illiterate people by 1977. Before 1975, no more than 500 people worked in the field of science. Also a campaign against malaria was launched, mainly completed by 1977. Roads were built, hospitals were created to popularize health, while before 1975 hospitals were almost only in Phnom Penh.
In the field of social equality, women were given the same rights of men. The DK government was the first to have female ministers.
The Vietnamese or the current regime have never contradicted this.
Although many mistakes were committed, we must never forget that the Vietnamese began infiltrating DK precisely in 1975, even creating a clandestine party. They conducted acts of sabotage and subversion to accomodate their invasion. And why the Kampuchean farmers supported the post-1979 Khmer Rouge guerrilla?
In the end, let me quote the DK ambassador at the UN: I did not realise that currency abolition and
people's evacuation had been practiced in terms of class struggle in order to continue the
Socialist Revolution and to establish a socialist country. Then I realised that they were very
important acts that needed to be done after the exhausting war. Besides, they were just the
necessary measures.
.jpg)
This is Ieng Sary, DK foreign minister, who is perfectly alive today, with glasses.
According to a speech given by Pol Pot during his visit in China in 1977, a campaign began in 1975 to increase grain production which was mainly completed by 1976. Farmers were gathered in cooperatives and State-owned farms. Honorary awards (such as the "Honorary Red Flag") were given to best factories and farms. Agriculture was seen as the basic factor to develop industry later.
In 1976 a literacy campaign began, giving basic education to 80% of illiterate people by 1977. Before 1975, no more than 500 people worked in the field of science. Also a campaign against malaria was launched, mainly completed by 1977. Roads were built, hospitals were created to popularize health, while before 1975 hospitals were almost only in Phnom Penh.
In the field of social equality, women were given the same rights of men. The DK government was the first to have female ministers.
The Vietnamese or the current regime have never contradicted this.
Although many mistakes were committed, we must never forget that the Vietnamese began infiltrating DK precisely in 1975, even creating a clandestine party. They conducted acts of sabotage and subversion to accomodate their invasion. And why the Kampuchean farmers supported the post-1979 Khmer Rouge guerrilla?
In the end, let me quote the DK ambassador at the UN: I did not realise that currency abolition and
people's evacuation had been practiced in terms of class struggle in order to continue the
Socialist Revolution and to establish a socialist country. Then I realised that they were very
important acts that needed to be done after the exhausting war. Besides, they were just the
necessary measures.
This is Ieng Sary, DK foreign minister, who is perfectly alive today, with glasses.
26 Oct 2010, 18:56
But you didn't provide a source.
Please give the exact link.
And Pol Pot went to a college in France.
That's not a proof that Red Khmers didn't kill intellectuals(sometimes even people with glasses) outside the party top though.
Please give the exact link.
Quote:This is Ieng Sary, DK foreign minister, who is perfectly alive today, with glasses.
And Pol Pot went to a college in France.
That's not a proof that Red Khmers didn't kill intellectuals(sometimes even people with glasses) outside the party top though.
26 Oct 2010, 19:06
That's interesting to hear, UBolshevik, but do you have information from outside sources, e.g., not Pol Pot or representatives of the Khmer Rouge government? I know they can be biased, but some sources are less biased than others, and yet most of what I have received for information indicate that people with glasses were killed (obviously not fully true, but one would have to wonder if the person whose picture you posted was spared because he was in the government), collectivization was brutal, and something like 1/5 of Cambodia's population perished.
I don't doubt that there was education, but on the other hand, I am also curious if education was only seen fit to be given to those who were not considered "tainted" by other forms of information, while many of those who had been educated previously were killed or isolated from society.
But do they acknowledge it formally that the Khmer Rouge did do some good in the country, or do they denounce it as an evil, irrational, genocidal regime completely and never bring up the issues of the DK's accomplishments in infrastructure and education?
I don't doubt that there was education, but on the other hand, I am also curious if education was only seen fit to be given to those who were not considered "tainted" by other forms of information, while many of those who had been educated previously were killed or isolated from society.
Quote:The Vietnamese or the current regime have never contradicted this.
But do they acknowledge it formally that the Khmer Rouge did do some good in the country, or do they denounce it as an evil, irrational, genocidal regime completely and never bring up the issues of the DK's accomplishments in infrastructure and education?
26 Oct 2010, 23:47
Quote:Moreover, Democratic Kampuchea gave the Cambodian people everything they no longer have, independence above all.
HURDY HUR HUR.
Quote:I'm not saying that Democratic Kampuchea was free of mistakes and shortcomings. But a lot of lies are circulating about it.
I'm not saying the Deutsches Reich was free of mistakes and shortcomings, but a lot of lies are circulating about it.
Quote:The first thing the revolutionary government did, was to build roads, people's hospitals outside the capital, to fight sickness; it held elections; it educated the people, and illitteracy literally fell.
it also introduced the 'new people' as slave labour, which got little medical care, had a privileged military caste.
Quote:Moreover, the massacre of intellectuals is a fake (many government officials had glasses, by the way): it is rather true that, before the revolution, science was a privilege of wealthy classes, while it was popularized after 1975.
its one massive lie!
Quote:And who ordered the Vietnamese to invade Cambodia and overthrow its revolution?
They did, because they got pissed off refugees were flooding in and soldiers playing border-crosser.
1/10 because I replied. Nice try.
27 Oct 2010, 21:10
Quote:Please give the exact link.
"Rise and Demise of Democratic Kampuchea" by Craig Etcheson and "The Constitution of Democratic Kampuchea: The Semantics of Revolutionary Change" by David Chandler are good books. You can also check on the Documentation Center of Cambodia, althought anti-communist.
Quote:but do you have information from outside sources, e.g., not Pol Pot or representatives of the Khmer Rouge government?
Outside sources can be found everywhere. It's very difficult if not impossible to find impartial sources on those matters, as you know. Anyway, reading what Pol Pot actually said is surely beneficial, since he is always censored. The Khmer Rouges are almost the only source of dissent on the matter. Anyway, the communist visiting delegations to Cambodia agreed on that, China among them; but we could consider them as biased, of course, then let's consider again the Finnish inquiry commission's report that proves the "2-3 million dead" wrong.
Pol Pot publicly recognized that many mistakes occurred, that he was responsible for some of them, but the most of them were committed by people who later proved to be traitors. Many Party leaders were opportunists or Vietnamese agents. That's not propaganda: four top-leaders, Khieu Samphan, Ieng Sary, Son Sen and Ta Mok, all betrayed Pol Pot; the current Prime Minister Hun Sen was a Khmer Rouge before being appointed as prime minister by the Vietnamese.
Quote:But do they acknowledge it formally that the Khmer Rouge did do some good in the country, or do they denounce it as an evil, irrational, genocidal regime
Well, you don't invade a country saying that it did some good...
Quote:They did, because they got pissed off refugees were flooding in and soldiers playing border-crosser.
Did they? The Vietnamese were trying to ecompass all Indochina into a military alliance led by Viet Nam, and they did with Laos by forcing a treaty that allowed Vietnamese troops to freely cross the border. Moreover, Viet Nam was allied with the Soviet Union, while DK was near to China, and in fact the Soviet Union provided assistance and recognition to the puppet regime.
27 Oct 2010, 23:47
Quote:Soviet Union provided assistance and recognition to the puppet regime.
Uncle Ho, puppet regime?
28 Oct 2010, 02:57
I can't believe I'm seeing a defense of the Khmer Rouge. To libel the courageous forces of Vietnam who ended this horrible despot's shitty non-socialist dictatorship is disgusting. Its been well established that the CIA, and delta force, aided the Khmer Rouge, and other Cambodian agents, against the invading socialist armies. The only way someone could possibly portray such a group of assholes in a positive light is by accepting the degenerate Social Imperialism theories. Which is just one more example of why Maoism sucks.
28 Oct 2010, 18:23
Quote:Uncle Ho, puppet regime?
Uncle Ho died 10 years before. I was referring to the regime the Vietnamese established in Phnom Penh after they invaded, by the way.
@Dagoth Ur: Actually I explained how the CIA "aided" the Khmer Rouge... They aided King Norodom, not Pol Pot, and in fact they ceased to send their aid after Norodom distanced himself from Pol Pot in order to return king. And I don't see what's wrong with social-imperialism theory.
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