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Lenin and quotes

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Post 28 Apr 2009, 18:35
Okay so I admire Lenin a lot and on my Facebook have shared some video's of Lenin and of course I always get one person who quotes only the bad stuff from Lenin to me. So what do you all do when that happens? Any advice?
Post 28 Apr 2009, 19:26
What bad stuff?

Have you tried putting them in context?
Post 29 Apr 2009, 01:57
Like how he was a thug, killed people, was anti-democratic etc. The typical anti-Lenin crap. Of course I brought back the same examples they used but instead used examples from American politics like the American Revolution, Abraham Lincoln and FDR and of course today with George Bush and all his crap.
Post 29 Apr 2009, 03:07
But he was anti-democratic....
Post 29 Apr 2009, 03:43
Hey FDR was awesome.
Post 29 Apr 2009, 03:51
Lenin actually was democratic, in that he saw democracy as something that should be available to the masses, and not co-opted by the class of exploiters, as it certainly is in today's plutocracies. Of course, realize that horribly brutal Civil War aggravated by the capitalists nations of the day imposed suboptimal conditions to Lenin's administrative goals.

If you want a biting modern commentary on the inefficacy of American democracy, you should read Ward Churchill, but naturally be careful with how you quote him, should you wish to quote him.
Post 29 Apr 2009, 04:25
Quote:
Lenin actually was democratic, in that he saw democracy as something that should be available to the masses, and not co-opted by the class of exploiters, as it certainly is in today's plutocracies. Of course, realize that horribly brutal Civil War aggravated by the capitalists nations of the day imposed suboptimal conditions to Lenin's administrative goals.


Right that's what I mean by democratic. Not the big D democratic.

Quote:
If you want a biting modern commentary on the inefficacy of American democracy, you should read Ward Churchill, but naturally be careful with how you quote him, should you wish to quote him.


I don't think going the Ward Churchill route will be the right one with this person. I think this person listen's to Mark Livine (sp?).
Post 29 Apr 2009, 06:02
He really was more the Dictatorship of the Proletariat kind of guy.
Post 29 Apr 2009, 07:19
Quote:
He really was more the Dictatorship of the Proletariat kind of guy.


That is democracy.
Post 29 Apr 2009, 07:31
Democracy is a pride of lions, and a herd of buffalo voting on whats for dinner. Majority rules, minority suffers.
Post 29 Apr 2009, 07:36
A dictatorship of the majority is always preferable to a dictatorship of the minority (ie our current dictatorship of the bourgeoisie).
Post 29 Apr 2009, 07:58
never mind.
Post 29 Apr 2009, 10:25
Dagoth, that line really only works on other Marxists. If you don't accept the class struggle as the primary contradiction in society, you probably won't care.
Post 29 Apr 2009, 14:15
Quote:
That is democracy.


Technically no. It makes the proletariat the ruling class, that is, the remainders of the bourgeoisie become the oppressed minority. Democracy guarantees that the whole people take part in political decision-making (it comes from "demos", which means people and "krateia", which means political power or authority) In the dictatorship of the proletariat, the ex-exploiters surely won't be granted such honors.
Post 29 Apr 2009, 14:36
Mabool, you should probably read this: The Revolutionary-Democratic Dictatorship of the Proletariat and the Peasantry.

Lenin had no problem with calling the dictatorship of the proletariat "democratic". He even uses the phrase "democratic dictatorship" on occasion, an indication of how far his thinking is from any form of bourgeois liberalism.
Post 29 Apr 2009, 16:38
LittlePinky wrote:
Like how he was a thug, killed people, was anti-democratic etc. The typical anti-Lenin crap. Of course I brought back the same examples they used but instead used examples from American politics like the American Revolution, Abraham Lincoln and FDR and of course today with George Bush and all his crap.


I wonder how many books they've read on the subject? I bet if you asked them to site their sources, they'd be able to cite a wikipedia article and *0* hardcopy books.

So they criticize Lenin for killing people? Name me one political leader in history who *wasn't* responsible for the death of other human beings. And who did Lenin kill, poor people, or White sympathizers and rich resisters?

If they're so gung-ho about being as democratic as possible, I'd get them to question who the democratic interests in this society serve. If this society is so democratic compared to Lenin's "evil dictatorship of the proletariat," then can they (your criticizers) run for office? Do they have the funds to do this? Can your friends get on TV and talk about what they want to talk about if we have a "free media?" Are your friends "free" to openly organize against the current government, or would the current government have them shot, just like "evil Lenin?"

Basically, my strategy would be to make them question the very principles they claim Lenin didn't live by, and demonstrate how if nothing else, Lenin came closer to realizing these idealisitic principles your criticizers seem to have than modern bourgeoisie politicians.
Post 11 May 2009, 20:00
Exactly with the killing people and I pointed that out. Look at all we've killed and I pointed out the American revolution against the U.K. as an example and how many people died and that Washington was even cruel to his soldiers even though I'm sure he had his reasoning. I also mentioned the Native Americans and how that was genocide. Of course they said it wasn't but how can you say that?

Good point about running for office and going on tv. If that ever comes up again I'll be sure to remember that.

Thank you TheFern for some good ideas!
Post 13 May 2009, 06:08
My pleasure LittlePinky! Keep defending Lenin - keep fighting the good fight.
Post 06 Sep 2009, 07:14
Quote:
Hey FDR was awesome.


I agree, I think FDR was probably the greatest U.S. President of the 20 Century. At least he was more pragmatic than the rest of them. After all, it was his administration that entered us in the war against Germany & Japan.
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