Quote:There is only one Korean people and they deserve to remain Koreans and independant, and that's the North, not the South.
Quote:There is only one working class and they deserve to live in a country that isn't a survival of fascist dictatorship.
Quote:Money doesn't make virtue, only capitalists believe that.
Quote:No, but you can't eat independence
Quote:North Korea's survival depends on Chinese ( and international, a good part of it American ) aid, and Pyongyang still can't feed the population.
Quote:South Korea, while not exactly a democracy, is still a hundred times more democratic than the DPRK.
Quote:If some revolutionaries didn't dare say, "liberty or death", "rather death than slavery", many would still starve under the rule of aristocracy. Your are like those philistines saying "rather slavery than death" and finally receive both.
Quote:Isolate South Korea from the allies on which it depends, and we will see which economy is the best. For years North Korea, without soviet aid, had a stronger growth.
Quote:I don't see the working class in power in South Korea. North Korea is more democratic than the south, because the North korean government doesn't work for a bourgeoisie, but for the people itself. South Korea is led by warmongers and murderers. Look at what they did to their former progressive president, Roo Hoo-Myun.
Quote:I don't see the working class in power in South Korea. North Korea is more democratic than the south, because the North korean government doesn't work for a bourgeoisie, but for the people itself.
Quote:South Korea is led by warmongers and murderers.
Quote:Isolate South Korea from the allies on which it depends, and we will see which economy is the best. For years North Korea, without soviet aid, had a stronger growth.
Quote:And you have no evidence that Roh Moo-Hyun's death was orchestrated by right-wing forces in South Korea or elsewhere.
Quote:The South's would still be stronger. It produces a huge amount of consumer goods which sell all over the world. And the North was always reliant on Soviet assistance when it initially had a better economy than the South's.
Quote:The bourgeoisie are in power in South Korea. A quasi aristocracy is in power in North Korea. It works for the preservation of the elite who run North Korea. These are the ones who live in nice houses in Pyongyang and where fancy clothes and eat and drink well. These are a far cry from the peasants who live in run-down shacks in the countryside, have sporadic access to electricity and have to wash their clothes in the river. I know, I've been there and seen them.
Quote:The South's would still be stronger. It produces a huge amount of consumer goods which sell all over the world.
Quote:North Korean "citizens" have absolutely no rights at all, even serfs in the feudal times had more rights than them.
Quote:North Korea was more developed than SK to start with. And the growth they had doesn't mean anything, because it all went to shit the moment the Soviets closed off the pipelines.
Quote:They have the right to struggle against their enemy.
Quote:One more lie, the development was the same
Quote:But the South introduced fascist policies, then attacked North Korea.
Quote:Ahah, everyone knows that a campaign of slanders forced Roo to commit suicide, if he wasn't "suicided" by someone.
Quote:But I'm not surprised anymore to see you defending the bourgeoisie. It has become a habit. So, after the invasion of Afghanistan, the invasion of Best Korea?
Quote:You confuse assistance and trade.
Quote:You have a problem with logics? I said isolate South Korea from its allies, yet you reply that they "would still be stronger" because they "sell all over the world"? And to whom?? Your determination to defend imperialism is pathetic.
Quote:They have the right to struggle against their enemy. This is the greatest of all rights and the epitome of honor.
Quote:Never said I support an invasion. I support what's best for the people of North Korea which is not what they currently have.
Quote:"Everyone knows" is not evidence; it's a conspiracy theory with nothing to back it up. Why would they want to kill Roh anyway? He'd already retired from office.
Quote:No, you do. You seem to think that the wealth and success of the South Korean economy is mainly down to US and Japanese help, not legitimate global trade in commodities.
Quote:They sell to all sorts of countries! My phone is a Samsung, people drive Hyundai and Daewoo cars, LG does a huge business in selling electronics etc. What does North Korea sell? You're basically saying that if you destroy the South Korean economy and remove all its trading partners, the North Korean economy would be better.
Quote:Rights and honour are metaphysical.
Quote:North Korea is struggling with itself.
Quote:No it wasn't, the Japanese concentrated most of the industry in the North.
Quote:No, it was the North that attacked the South, not the other way around.
Quote:Yes that's what I say. You support imperialism since you believe imperialism is better.
Quote:Indeed, that's a conspiracy. He was a progressive and was killed for the Sunshine policy.
Quote:I don't see wealth and success in South Korea, only the exploitation of the working class by the bourgeoisie, and very few rights for the working class, and political repression for trade unions and those who support peace with the North.
Quote:And of course, US help was important for the Korean economy, as it was for Japan.
Quote:That's exactly what I say, as history has proven: until the fall of the USSR, North Korea had a better economy. So without gobal market, the South would soon fall in chaos.
Quote:Then you know nothing about philosophy. Right and honor are concepts used to describe a reality, as much as "communist". If I say that you are not a communist, this isn't metaphysical. If I say that you have no honor, this isn't metaphysical. Someone who didn't stood firm to his principles has no honor, someone who has no right has no right.
Quote:someone who has no right has no right.
Quote:And the amount of destructions?
Quote:Maybe according to CNN or the BBC.
Quote:Principles go against dialectics. Rights and honour are purely a subjective determination of morals and principles. And like "independence", the North Korea people can't eat "honour" so what good is it to them? The South Koreans could easily say that they are more honourable because they ar not dependent on China and the World Food Program for handouts.
Quote:Lol a load of crap. So all the bourgeoisie need to do is say 'the proletariat have no right to overthrow capitalism' and you would abide by that?
Quote:And while you see the bourgeoisie exploiting the working class in South Korea (duh, it's capitalist), In North Korea the working class is epxloited by the aristocracy.
Quote:South Korea has a multiparty democracy and the rule of law.
Quote:No, according to known facts. Kim the First actually talked to Stalin in person and told him that he was going to attack the South. But Stalin was cautious about getting directly involved so he told Kim to turn to Mao instead.
OP-Bagration wrote:North Korea is also a multiparty democracy, but a better democracy for there is no bourgeois parties unlike in the South. How could a country which allows bourgeois party becalled a "democracy"? In such a democracy, bourgeois parties represent the power of the bourgeoisie, not of the people.
Quote:Your philosophising has led you to the abbyss. According to your statement above (which exactly contradicts what you've written about philosophical rights) all a certain political system (state) has to do to create real democracy is to label competing political parties as "burgeoise" and lo-and-behold they can be outlawed so the real democracy can come reign. What a load of bull.
Quote:Second, your "system" of calling parties burgeoise is bulletproof because those parties *are* burgeoise even if they themselves claim they have got nothing to do with *whatever you define as burgeoise*.
Quote:On the other hand, what is wrong with having an opposition?
Quote:Or, better, please define democracy because we seem to have a difference of opinion on the very term.
Quote:Nazi Germany had also the rule of law, the USSR had the rule of law, and North Korea has also the rule of law.
Quote:North Korea is also a multiparty democracy, but a better democracy for there is no bourgeois parties unlike in the South. How could a country which allows bourgeois party be called a "democracy"? In such a democracy, bourgeois parties represent the power of the bourgeoisie, not of the people.
Quote:The fascist South successfully blamed the North for the attack, but there is no "know facts" saying that the North attacked first.
Quote:They were certainly expecting a provocation, and that's what happened.
Quote:You need more than food to live. Those who died on the battlefield had something else in mind than getting feed. But this seems quite unknown to you.
Quote:There is formal rights and real rights. If someone has no formal rights, he has no formal rights. If someone has no real rights, he has no real rights. This doesn't depend on your own judgment. On this board for example, you have no formal right to make one line posts, but since there is a relative tolerance, you have a real right, but limited, to make one line posts. That you agree or not with those limitations of freedom, and decide or not to abide by that, has nothing to do with the existence of such rights.
Quote:There is no aristocracy in North Korea, only in your delirium. An aristocracy in North Korea? And why not an aristocracy in the UK? Ah, yes, there is one...
Quote:Nazi Germany had also the rule of law, the USSR had the rule of law, and North Korea has also the rule of law. Those are strong states in which the laws are respected.
Quote:North Korea is also a multiparty democracy, but a better democracy for there is no bourgeois parties unlike in the South.
Quote:How could a country which allows bourgeois party becalled a "democracy"? In such a democracy, bourgeois parties represent the power of the bourgeoisie, not of the people.
Quote:Serious historians would say that the South most probably attacked first, then the North counter-attacked. The fascist South successfully blamed the North for the attack, but there is no "know facts" saying that the North attacked first. That the North was willing to attack is true, but as you said yourself, Stalin was reluctant and I don't think the Koreans would have attacked without clear support from the USSR. They were certainly expecting a provocation, and that's what happened.
Quote:The soldiers of South Korea had something else in mind as well: a superior material existence than the socialist countries. South Korea is today a much better society to live in than North Korea.
Quote:So according to you and your metaphysical "rights", the proletariat are stuck with capitalism forever because the bourgeoisie (who are always the dispenser of rights) will never grant them the right to overthrow it.
Quote:Of course, it isn't an official aristocracy; neither is it orthodox. However, there is clearly a caste in place in North Korea which dominates society and is significantly richer and better fed than most of the population.
Quote:Just because it has laws doesn't mean that all rules are followed and memners of the elite aren't able to circumvent them. Officially North Koreans aren't allowed to cross into China illegally, but the government lets them do it because they bring money back into the country and there are so many of them doing it.
Quote:No it isn't. The Korean Social Democratic Party and the Chondoist Chongu Party are not opposition parties and do not confront the ruling Korean Workers' Party. They are stooges and nothing more. There is no debate in North Korea as everything is decided by a tiny elite who are elected through sham elections which always come out with a 100% approval for whoever has been put forward as a candidate.
Quote:So an absolutist monarchy is a democracy?
Quote:No-one is saying that South Korea is a genuine democracy (same with any other capitalist country). But it is a lot better society than North Korea. Just because North Korea claims to be a government working in the interests of the workers and peasants doesn't mean it is.
Quote:Serious historians would cite the evidence found in the Soviet archives which show the North attacked first.
Quote:North Korea has staged dozens of provocations in the last 20 years. Of course you're going to have provocations in such situations, but that doesn't change the facts.
Quote:So how come the South was completely unprepared for war with a small army without any heavy weaponry. How come they almost lost the war before the UN intervened?
Quote:That's not possible because during the war DPRK's economy was stronger, and there was less inequalities, so more resources for the biggest part of the population.
Quote:You have a big problem with logics. Where did I say something like that? Right is concrete, that's what I said.
Quote:A caste isn't an aristocracy, and moreover a caste is related to blood. This "songbun" thing is defined like that, according to a US propagandist who worker in the South for the US army:
Quote:Yes of course, because a bourgeois party opposing another bourgeois party, like the US two official parties, is more democratic than two popular parties discussing about their differences? How do you know there is no debates in North Korea? You read too much anti-Korean propaganda.
Quote:??
Quote:As a Korean I would prefer to live in the North, because the North isn't a puppet state.
Quote:Since you are pro-capitalism and pro-imperialism, you believe religiously that a society ruled by gold (auri sacra fames), gold for the bourgeoisie, is better than a society ruled by honor (timarchy), and especially communist honor, but that's pure ideology, bourgeois ideology.
Quote:Then cite it, and we will se.