U.S.S.R. and communism historical discussion.
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Post 30 Mar 2004, 08:16
OH YES GREAT MOTHER RUSSIA MUST RULE OVER ALL *ultra-nationalist NazBol hard-on*

Please, people. I understand that the Chechen independence movement is rife with Islamic fundamentalism. I understand that hundreds of innocent Russians have been killed by suicide bombers and gunmen from Chechnya. But let me ask you this: Why, do you think, do so many Chechens feel so desperate that they feel the need to commit such horrendous acts? Is it because they are simply horrible, evil people that want to do nothing more than kill valiant and brave Russian soldiers and murder innocent Russian civilians? Or could it be because between 1810-1917 & 1956-1991, the Chechen people have faced brutal conquest, discrimination, exploitation, and bigotry at the hands of the rulers of Russia?

Since 1810, the Russian state has ruled over Chechnya. The Tsarist regime treated the Chechen people like inferiors and set forth to "Russify" the area by assimilating them into Russian culture and seizing Chechen land to give to Russian landowners. Chechens were given no civil rights and considered second-rate citizens like all the other non-Russian nationalities within the Russian Empire. In 1917 the Bolshevik Revolution granted the Chechen people autonomy, and the Ingush-Chechen Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic was established within the boundries of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic. From 1917 into the 1940's, the Chechen people were given equal treatment and the same civil and human rights as all other Soviet citizens. However, after the Khrushchevite coup in 1956, the Chechen people experienced the same second-class status, bigotry, and oppression that they had felt under the Tsarist regime.

In 1991, the revisionist Soviet Union fell. The Chechen people saw this as a possible chance to once again achieve independence- but the Russian Federation refused to grant them independence alongside the other former Soviet Republics. In 1994, Chechnya attempted to declare its independence again, and this time was attacked by 40,000 Russian troops who proceeded to lay waste to the city of Groznyy and other Chechen towns. The Chechen people resisted the invasion of their homeland, however: so much that Yelstin was forced to invade AGAIN in December of 1994. After two years of fighting and countless atrocities by the Russian Army, a peace treaty was signed but sporadic fighting by smaller, Islamic terrorist groups in Chechnya continued. The war began again in 1999 after a Chechen renegade faction's attacks in neighboring Dagestan were used by the Russians as an excuse to attack Chechnya again, and the fighting has continued ever since.

Currently the Russians continue to bomb the countryside, hoping to find flush out Muslim strongholds, but only bring death and destruction to the residents of the area. Protests are performed daily in the capitol of Grozny protesting these attacks. People often gather near Russian held land and sing traditional Chechen songs. Most residents who have not fled must use busted water mains because they are without running water and electricity after the countless Russian bombings. Harassment and bribery of Chechen civilians by Russian soldiers is commonplace. Indiscriminant killing of civilians in Groznyy and attacks on nonviolent demonstrators are also a major part of the Russian Army's occupation of Chechnya. With such things going on, it is no wonder (although it is certainly no excuse) that a great deal of Chechens become religious fundamentalists and throw themselves into terrorist groups, seeking to find a way out of their dillemma!

My point is: just because Russia has occupied Chechnya for centuries doesn't make the Chechen people any more Russian than Ukrainians or Poles or Finns.

frag Russian chauvanism, Up proletarian internationalism!
Post 30 Mar 2004, 15:55 may be nationalism. check the other thing; not only chechens live in chechenya. they are nationalist as well. they have killed russians for their islamic nationalism. and i am not speaking of soldiers.

Mother Russia? I tell you SHIT.

Russian S.F.S.R. did not have Ukrainian SSR, Belorussian SSR etc in ITS boundaries.

It was within the SOVIET boundary, not the RUSSIAN.

Only CHECHENYA declared independence from RUSSIA.

All others declared independence from the SOVIET UNION.

And you speak of internationalism when chechens fight for nationalism...and so do russians? My opinion, leave chechenya to russia and chechens gain more autonomy.
Post 30 Mar 2004, 16:11
also, in 1994:
1) Chechens drove out all russian garrissons
2) Declared independence
3) Attacked Dagestan and Ingushetia
4) Were attacked by Russians

Who started all this? the chechens.
Post 30 Mar 2004, 21:02
Quote: may be nationalism. check the other thing; not only chechens live in chechenya. they are nationalist as well. they have killed russians for their islamic nationalism. and i am not speaking of soldiers.

Nationalism is a bourgeois ideology that, in the end, promotes capitalism (albeit anti-imperialist capitalist much of the time) and a "me-first" mentality. Nationalism cannot completely liberate a nation from exploitation and oppression. The only true ideology that stands for the international working class is proletarian internationalism- Communism (the whole world comes first).

However, not all nationalism is the same. The nationalism of an oppressed nation/nationality and the nationalism of an oppressor nation are VERY different. The nationalism of an oppressed people hopes to fight against oppression, while the nationalism of an oppressor only has to do with enforcing oppression. It is key to understand the fundamental distinction between oppressor and oppressed nations, or else you'll end up siding with the oppressors.


Mother Russia? I tell you SHIT.

Why are you so hell-bent on defending Russia Russia Russia? Why are you so angered by the fact that an oppressed national minority should try to resist subjugation?

The Chechen people are not a nation, as defined by Marxist-Leninists. They are a community of people formed on the basis of a common territory, a common language, and a common culture, but lack a common economic life. They do not have the right to self-determination, not because the right has not been granted to them, but because their actual historical development has not created the conditions for their development as a nation. They do, however, have a right to autonomy, but will they get it from a capitalist Russia? No. That will take a new socialist revolution to do so.

I don't think Chechen independence is the way to go, because they cannot objectively have self-determination- however, I understand why they wish for such a thing. I also support resistance by captive nations and national minorities against chauvanism and national oppression, and I know that the only way this kind of exploitation and oppression can be ended is if a new October happens and the Chechen people are granted autonomy within the new socialist Russia (or U.S.S.R.).

Such a subject is complicated, much like the Chicano national question here within the U.S....
Post 31 Mar 2004, 04:53
I thought that the argument that because "some Germans killed lots of Jews with the aim of exterminating them all, that we ought to kill lots of Germans with the aim of exterminating them all" was already shot down?
Post 31 Mar 2004, 12:43
I dont care about russia. I care about the USSR. and Russia would be helped if they found a solution good for BOTH sides...
Post 31 Mar 2004, 14:04
Um, I hate to break it to you Antartis... but...

the USSR is gone.

It's been gone for some time now.

And the Russian Federation is not the USSR
Post 31 Mar 2004, 14:25
WOW? you realized all these by yourself? (joking)
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